Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading

[munselln8]

glad you can joke about it and that you had a backup meal

after a few accidents i started making 1 extra dough ball just to launch 'naked' as a test run. i got so nervous about putting the pizza in the oven for a while  its a high stakes game when dinner is on the line

Trust me, I was not in a joking mood that night hahaha, it took a day or so of distance 

I am making another pizza tomorrow but I'm going to make two. One with my original most recent successful recipe (With all that oil, etc) and one with the modified recipe that failed last week. I am starting to feel pretty sure that I mis-measured something (likely water, but I'll find out, I guess.) I'll be launching that "Trusted" recipe first, for sure...I have no left-overs in the fridge!!!

[typicalsam]

Good luck! The failures make the successes that but sweeter 

[munselln8]

So...two ~500gr. doughballs in the fridge for the next 24 hours. we'll see how they turn out tomorrow. Interesting thing happened in the process. I mixed up the first doughball and let it run in the mixer until it balled and clung to the hook (as usual). I pulled it out and dusted the bench, then started to knead it. I kneaded it for about 2 mintues then thought..."I'll just let it "Rest" while I start the other doughball". So, I let it sit on the bench for probably 5 or 8 minutes or so while I started mixing up the other doughball (the one with less oil and destined for a "no dusting" kneading session). When I came back to finish kneading the first ball...it was as though it had been kneading itself while I was working on the other ball. Is there something to this "Resting" the dough that I have overlooked? Seriously, I always thought that resting was "in lieu" of kneading, not as a necessary part of kneading. Anyone?? Bueller? :-) Anyway, wish me luck! Also, The "low oil" ball was decidedly "stickier" than the high oil ball which at first seemed strange after reading Pete's comments on oil adding to the hydration level. After some brief thought though...it seems reasonable that oil would make it less sticky being that it is oil (a lubricant). so, plus 1 to extra oil for making it easier to work with but all judgments reserved until tomorrow when I try to open these two balls up. I'll take some comparative picks tomorrow.

[Yael]

When your dough is resting, the flour is absorbing the water making it more 'consistent' if you will. 5 to 8 min is quite short, 15-30 min is more standard.
When I hand-make my dough, I just mix everything till it's correctly mixed (no clumps), then I let it rest 15-30 min, then fold, then rest again, then fold again. I'm not even sure there's a difference with a basic dough which is mixed with a machine...

[munselln8]

Just finished eating way too much pizza. I pulled both dough 1.5 hrs. prior to opening them ( I will attach photos once I upload them). Oven was preheated to 500f for two hours prior (My oven will only reach 500f despite my greatest efforts). I opened and launched my original recipe first (With the 5% oil). It was it's normal, wonderful working dough. I opened it, slapped it a couple times and easily managed two or three throws, making a nice round pie ~ 16", dressed it and launched nicely. 7 minute bake (moved it to the top stone after 4 minutes, rotated it 90 at 6 minutes and pulled.)
2nd pie (With the reduced oil and zero bench flour during the kneading process). The RF resulted in about the same rise on both dough. Turned this one onto the bench and noticed immediately the lack of elasticity. Was able to turn and slap but tossing was a no go (i.e. not as fun or easy or nice to work with.)
results: My normal recipe came out as usual. It was the first done and so I ate some while the other was in the oven. Very good. Tasty, with a nice chew. The second (lower oil and no dusting) was thinner (less oven spring) and the cornicione was thinner (which was a surprise - I had expected greater rise). The most noticeable difference was in the crispy nature of the low oil dough. To my surprise I LOVED the thinner / crispier nature of the crust on this. In the end, though I didn't like the workability of the low oil dough, I would make make it again over my old dough for the crsipy nature of the crust. Maybe I will try adding more salt to get the workability back up...?

[Pete-zza]

munselln8,

Can you tell us what the dough formulations were in terms of ingredients and amounts and the final dough ball weights, and also how you made and managed the doughs? The answers might provide a clue as to why the two dough balls performed differently in terms of elasticity and extensibility.

Peter

[munselln8]

1st pie (My normal recipe):
Dough: 100% (AT B&B)
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 5%

2nd pie (With reduced oil and no bench flour when kneading).
Flour: 100% (AT B&B)
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 1.6%

Both dough balls were ~500 grams (#1 was 509 #2 was 503)

The only difference in ingredients is the lower oil in the less elastic dough. This dough just doesn't spring back hardly at all. Just plastic flow. takes 30 seconds to spread it to 16" but it is usually not circular, but has to be "rearranged on the peel to get a circle (which yields inconsistent crust thickness).

The only difference in mgmt. of the dough is that the low oil dough gets no bench flour (dustings) while being kneaded. Both dough balls are placed directly in the fridge for 24 hrs. once balled. Removed 1.5 hrs. prior to opening.
This morning I opened up my "Pizza bible" and reread some stuff that seemed pertinent. 1) oil adds chewiness, flavor and browning (according to Tony). - this jives with what I ate last night. 2) Adding salt will make a dough more elastic (Tony states that they often triple the salt for "competition throwing dough".

That got me looking at my water supply: Here in Charleston we have a pretty soft water with a pH of 8.3 and 0 ppm salts.
what do you think about me upping my salt to increase elasticity?

[Pete-zza]

munselln8,

I don't see any harm in increasing the amount of salt, but you may want to get to around 2% or a bit more to notice a difference.

Do you plan at some point to try some of the ideas discussed at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64334.msg633693#msg633693 ?

Peter

[RHawthorne]

That got me looking at my water supply: Here in Charleston we have a pretty soft water with a pH of 8.3 and 0 ppm salts.
what do you think about me upping my salt to increase elasticity?

A pH level of 8.3 indicates that your water is very much in the alkaline range; definitely not soft. I don't know how much of a difference that might be making in your dough, but I would try diluting the water you use in your dough with one-half distilled water to see if that has any effect.

[Yael]

A pH level of 8.3 indicates that your water is very much in the alkaline range; definitely not soft. I don't know how much of a difference that might be making in your dough, but I would try diluting the water you use in your dough with one-half distilled water to see if that has any effect.

Alkaline water is soft water, isn't it? 
Under 7 it's acidic, so I wouldn't call it soft...
Are softness and hardness related to pH at all? Can a hard water (with a lot of mineral salts) be either acidic or alkaline?

[RHawthorne]

Alkaline water is soft water, isn't it? 
Under 7 it's acidic, so I wouldn't call it soft...
Are softness and hardness related to pH at all? Can a hard water (with a lot of mineral salts) be either acidic or alkaline?

Softness and hardness are definitely related to pH level. Here's a good article on the subject: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/water-hardness-and-ph/

[Fiorot]

For me to keep it simple a 3-4 day ferment will lead to a more extensive opening with less oven rise resulting in a thinner pie with a more dense rim.  No way will a same day dough act that way.   I will likely have much more rise with a airy rim and possible bubbles

[Yael]

Softness and hardness are definitely related to pH level. Here's a good article on the subject: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/water-hardness-and-ph/

I opened another thread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64593.new#new so we're not off-topic here 

[munselln8]

munselln8,

I don't see any harm in increasing the amount of salt, but you may want to get to around 2% or a bit more to notice a difference.

Do you plan at some point to try some of the ideas discussed at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64334.msg633693#msg633693 ?

Peter

Hey Pete!,
Yes, most of what I have been doing comes out of that post...I just got sidetracked abit in the "rabbit hole" of water quality. I had initially intended to use a 48hr. ferment on these last two but got busy and didn't get it done in time so alas, the 24 hr.  The higher salt concept came, partially out of that thread as well as keeping the lower oil.
I believe I will also be dropping water % to 63% based on the information in that thread.I will keep y'all posted. I have a lot of travel coming up so it might slow down progress.

[munselln8]

munselln8,

Like other members who replied to your posts, I originally thought that you were using too much oil, and especially because you also had a high hydration value (66%). The AT flour you are using has a rated absorption value of about 63%. But when you add 5% oil, that has an additional wetting effect on the dough and can yield a dough that is too wet and maybe harder to handle because of the increased wetness. In your case, the combined percents of water and oil was 71%. What Tom Lehmann and I often recommend when the dough is overly wet or hard to handle because of large hydration and oil quantities is that one try to use a combined percent of water and oil that is equal to the rated absorption value of the flour (63% in this case). If that yields a dough that is too dry, then the amount of water can be increased in future tests, in 2% increments, until the desired texture of the dough is achieved. To the above, I would note that 5% oil is not typical for a NY style dough. More typical is a value of about 1-2%. However, for a more tender crust and cornicione, adding more oil can have a tenderizing effect. But to achieve a more airy crust, it helps to have a relatively high bake temperature. To read more about this, you may want to read these two posts by Tom Lehmann:

Peter

So, having gone back and reread every post on this subject (combined with results from several of my experiments) I was struck by the quoted paragraph from reply #13. My complaints of an overly fluid dough was driving me crazy. Why I didn't think of over-hydrated dough immediately, I will never know. Guess I just wasn't ready to understand it.
So...Made two dough balls today: Both with finish weight of 500gr. at 60% hydration (Pete pointed out that the AT has a hydration capacity of 63%) so, combined with 2% oil I should have a total hydration of ~62%.
I had also noted in Leo Spizziri's video on NY style that he hydrates at 60% as well (though he was using 00 flour).
The second ball was treated identically but made with KA Bread flour (I am just about out of AT and my repack supplier isn't offering 5lb. bags atm - not to mention they are super-expensive anyway) because I want to see how it handles at this formulation.
In the fridge for about 36 hrs. Formulation as follows:

yeast: 1.6%
Sugar: 2%
Salt: 2%
oil: 1.6%
water: 60%

[munselln8]

For this latest iteration I thought I would take the time to just record some video so you could all get a more accurate idea of how this dough is working and how things are coming along. I hope I explained everything in the video better than I manage to explain things in print :-) Formulation:
 500gr. dougballs @
 Flour: 100%
Water: 60%
Yeast: 1.6%
Sugar: 2%
Salt: 2%
oil: 1.6%

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:
Part 4:
Wrap-up:

[amolapizza]

Who knows, maybe some more salt in the dough will make it easier to toss.  The salt helps tighten up the gluten web.  The guys competing in pizza acrobatics use a dough that is far to salt for eating as it helps the dough to be very elastic and not break easily.  In Naples they are normally around 50g per liter of water which at 60% hydration comes out at about 3%.  In the summer months they might increase that to 55-60g/l as the increased salt level helps control the fermentation and keeps the dough a bit tighter.

FWIW, I enjoyed watching the videos!

[munselln8]

After watching the footage a couple times I can readily see I have some serious issues with my throwing technique. I can see that a couple of the awkward throws are, at least partly, due to a rushed effort where I 1) didn't have the dough evenly rounded and 2) Didn't throw the dough from the center. So, Kinda glad I recorded it cause now I know that I can't take the tossing of the dough for granted (like I would automatically remember exactly how to do it). Anyway...I will probably still try raising the salt a bit and lowering the water a bit (not at the same time though :-) Happy pizza making everyone! I DO LOVE that I lowered the oil though (thanks to everyone for that suggestion!) It really makes the dough lighter and crispier, with an easier chew.