Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza

[Pete-zza]

xiaobao12,

The type of parchment paper that you and I might purchase at the retail level is stated to be usable at temperatures of up to about 425-450 degrees F. However, what I usually do when using parchment paper is to remove it from the oven once the pizza sets up and is unlikely to expand any more. That is perhaps under 200 degrees F. However, I have made pizzas using parchment paper where I left the parchment paper in the oven the entire time. I did not detect any downside to having done that. We have even had some members who reuse the parchment paper. Typically, the part of the parchment paper under the pizza retains its basic color. The part outside of the pizza usually turns brown from the heat of the oven, and become brittle. I usually trim the parchment paper once the pizza is dressed so that most of the parchment paper is under the pizza.

The only time I use a rolling pin to roll out dough is where that is the prescribed method, for example, for cracker-style pizzas (including Chicago cracker style pizzas), the Chicago deep-dish style (such as Giordano's), and semi-cracker style pizzas such as Donatos, Monical's, Round Table and others of the same ilk. Otherwise, I form the skins by hand.

Peter

[xiaobao12]

Hi everybody.

I made this dough again, using the measurements for the 12" that Peet-za posted somewhere.

I used all-purpose because I didn't have any bread flour. The dough was equally delicious.

My question is how do I deal with a dough that fights back? When I am trying to shape it, it is so springy and fights back. I let it rest for a few minutes but it continued to fight. I ended up with a thicker crust than desired. I also had to hold the dough vertically so that it would pull itself to lengthen (I would rotate it smoothly while it stretched). Problem is, when I laid it back down flat, it would shrink up.

I have attached a picture of the crust. As you can see, it's somewhat gummy. But after letting the pizza rest for 10 minutes, it aired up. I guess it's like cutting into fresh baked too soon (you need to let it cool). But there is no way I am going to wait to cut into a fresh pizza! Is there a solution to this? Is the gummyness due to too low of an oven temp? (Mine was 500 using a stone).

Thanks for your advice.

[xiaobao12]

?? Anybody?

[Skee]

How much time passed between balling the dough and opening?

[xiaobao12]

Hi Skee,

I am an amateur so I don't understand balling and opening.

[Chicago Bob]

Hi Skee,

I am an amateur so I don't understand balling and opening.

Those 2 words should be added to the pizza glossary.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html

to ball: is just that, to form the dough into a ball which is then usually left to ferment, rise(frig or counter)

to open: this is what you do with the ball when you stretch it open to form a pizza.

snap back often is caused by reballing the dough and then not giving it a long enough rest/relax time before attempting to open it. 

most common gumline would be one stemming from too thick(T/F)a crust for the temperature of the bake

Bob

[xiaobao12]

Thanks Bob.

So you are saying that it was too thick even though my oven was cranked at 500 with a stone for 1 hr prior to baking, right?

Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?

Thanks guys.

[Chicago Bob]

Thanks Bob.

So you are saying that it was too thick even though my oven was cranked at 500 with a stone for 1 hr prior to baking, right?

Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?

Thanks guys.

If it fights back then , yes, let it rest more. How long did you mix the dough for...overmixing can also cause snapback.

I'm not sure I understand what all you did with this dough(workflow).  Was it fermented overnight? Used within 1 1/2 hr after making...I'm a 'lil confused.
btw, it should not have that gum that you referenced as being akin to cutting a fresh loaf of bread. Looks like the dough was too thick and didn't cook all the way that can definitely happen at 500 degrees xiaobao12 because the outside starts looking to done and that fools you into pulling to soon. I'll bet a min. or 2 more and that pie would have been fine. Takes a little practice. 

Bob

[Skee]

Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?

Here are the instructions for balling and resting from the first post in this thread:

"The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours (also in the covered Rubbermaid storage container)."

Note that there is no mention of putting the dough in the fridge after balling, the rest should be done at room temp.  Your cold rest followed by immediate shaping would explain why the dough was hard to work with.

[xiaobao12]

Bob and skee,

Thanks so much for the replies.  It's very insightful.

I cannot remember if I put it in the fridge (I do that if it's going to be more than 1.5 hrs due to scheduling). I will be sure to pay attention next time and listen to the flour. 

[xiaobao12]

Hi Pete,

I am going to try this recipe again. Do you think I can make the poolish and leave it to ferment overnight? I want to make the dough the next morning and have pizza for lunch.

Thanks.

[Pete-zza]

xiaobao12,

I did something like what you want to do and discussed the results in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131 . If you want to shorten the poolish hours, you will have to modify the amount of yeast. The way to do this is discussed in the poolish section of the article by Didier Rosada at  http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm . In relying on the teachings of that article, you will have to convert from fresh yeast to dry yeast. Water temperature will also be important so that the poolish doesn't peak and recede while you are asleep.

Peter

[Chastx]

To Pete & Jerry and everyone else that contributed to this thread:  THANK YOU!
Made this pizza today (only my second attempt making dough), and I've got to say it was really good.  In spite of the fact that I didn't have enough time for the whole 5 hour preferment, nor the second ferment, it was still quite aromatic, chewy, crisp on the bottom.  If my dough making doesn't improve past this, I'll die happy.
I will say that these "wet" doughs do take some skill getting off the peel.  I'm not a cornmeal fan...

My cook:  Pete's formulation for 2 x 12 inch pies, minus the honey; 3.5 hours counter-top @ 73 degrees room temp; preferment was easily double in size, with LOTS of bubbles (it actually may have peaked ); 1.5 hour ferment; then ball & go.  Big Green Egg @ 600, with stone surface @ 525.  Decent "leoparding" underneath, but not quite as brown on top as I hoped.  Cook time was about 4 - 5 minutes.  I left the second pie on too long, and it got a little dark...  Love & learn, right?  Next time, I'm bumping the heat up to 650 - 700 to see how it goes.

[Simple Man]

Here's my attempt at Jerry Mac's NY Style using Pete-zaa's formula in post #1 of this thread. The procedure was followed exactly with the exception of using a bread machine to mix and knead the dough. Room temps were also identical to what Peter described with his experiment at about 67F.

I was very pleased with the results and I will definitely use this recipe again. It is one of the best results I have had using a same day dough. My only complaint was that I didn't quite get the oven spring I was looking for and that Peter and others have achieved. I attribute this more than likely to the fact that I used a pizza screen vs. cooking directly on a stone (my stone cracked recently). Pizza was cooked in a preheated 500-550F oven on the lowest rack position for 10 mins. and then moved to top rack under broiler for last 1 min.

Toppings were pepperoni, mushroom & onions. Cheese was Sargento whole milk mozz/provolone mix. Sauce was 6in1 tomatoes, Italian seasoning, garlic powder, salt.

[Toronto1984]

So say I wanted to use my culture purchased from Ed, would my percentage in yeast be different? If so, how much? Thank you.

[Pete-zza]

So say I wanted to use my culture purchased from Ed, would my percentage in yeast be different? If so, how much? Thank you.

Toronto1984,

I personally never tried making a natural preferment version of JerryMac's dough since I was trying to stay pretty close to JerryMac's script. However, another member, foodblogger, asked a similar question at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg58617#msg58617, to which I responded in the following Reply 22. In the example I set forth in Reply 22, it presumed a use of a poolish preferment but a natural one using wild yeast rather than commercial yeast. In your case, if you intend to make a straight dough, and once you know the room temperature at which you will ferment your dough and also the period over which you want to ferment your dough, you might want to take a look at the sourdough starter quantity prediction chart at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg229864#msg229864

In your case, you may have to adjust the ingredient quantities based on the use of the sourdough quantity prediction chart. You can use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html in the manner I described in Reply 22 for that purpose.

Peter

[gforgx]

Today I tried following JerryMac's dough formulation with Pete-zza's baker's percents and I really liked the results.

My calculations were:

Flour (100%): 204.86 g  |  7.23 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (70%): 143.41 g  |  5.06 oz | 0.32 lbs
IDY (1.3575%): 2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Salt (1.61763%): 3.31 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Honey (4.71332%): 9.66 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (177.68845%): 364.02 g | 12.84 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = 0.096738

All the mixing was done by hand. Actually I wouldn't say the dough by the end of the mixing was too wet, but perhaps I'm just used to 'watery' doughs because my oven only does 527F and therefore I have to use higher HR always. Anyway, it was really easy for me to open the ball into a 13" base. Also the honey I was using didn't have much water content so that may have had impact too.

I have already been experimenting with honey in my dough in the past, but back then I wasn't using pre-ferment and was refrigerating the ball for ~24 hours before using. Yesterday's result was somehow similar to my earlier attempts (good browning, etc.) but in general was definitely better. The crust was more airy and enjoyable for sure. Below are some photos.

[qrkid]

I am pretty new here and to making pizza. Just trying different things to see what I like and can learn. I needed a one day "semi emergency" dough and I found JerryMac's that Pete-zza had so kindly converted into percentages and I went for it. I used the formula in post #1. I did lower the volumes but kept percentages because my baking stone can only accomadate a ~13in pie. My stand mixer is packed away as I am moving soon so I just mixed everything by hand. I let the poolish do its thing for about 4.75hrs at around 72deg.
My crappy rental apt electric oven claims to heat up to 525. I do not have a temp gun so not actually sure what temp I am baking at. Pre heated my Emille Henry stone for 1 hour and then put my somewhat interesting pie in. Cooked the pie for about 7-8min.
Crust came out great in my opinion. Bottom was crisp enough to hold all the toppings and sides rose well but was super tender to bite. For a one day recipe it also had pretty good flavor. I will be using this again.

This pie was tomato sauce, pecorino and mozz cheese, olives, capers, pickled chilli's, italian sausage and what topped after baking with fresh basil and lemon zest.