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Author Topic: how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?  (Read 262 times)

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Offline Roberto_buonissimo

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how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?
« on: September 18, 2020, 01:32:48 AM »
hi!
thanks Tom for your amazing hints and tricks - u are awesome

what i saw from Franco Pepe was, that he uses an old fermented dough for his new dough batch.

is there say a rule how much you should use ?

so to speak a bakers percentage for this ?

if i use 1 kg of flour and 700 ml water for my new batch how much old dough should i use than ? (the weight of the old dough would be good to know)

just for experimenting and seeing if the flavour profile is for me

thanks!

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2020, 04:42:28 AM »
If you understand enough Italian you could try: https://www.laconfraternitadellapizza.net/calcolapizza/

It's also available for iphone/android in English/Italian, but it's an unofficial copy made by someone without asking permission.  It appears to use the same algorithm as it yields the same results. I imagine that they extracted the calculations from the java script.

I you delete the 0 in the field for pasta di riporto, it will show you a valid percentage range to use, and will then calculate how much is needed with a possible addition of fresh yeast.  There are some additional buttons to indicate the freshness of the pasta di riporto, the choices are stanca (tired), normale and vivace (lively).
Jack

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Offline Sapp

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Re: how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2020, 09:47:12 AM »
I have seen both of these alleged Franco Pepi recipes before. The primary difference between the two is that the bootleg Italian references fresh beer yeast while the internet one references just fresh yeast. Ken Forkish’ book has yet another recipe associated with Pepi. He was also interviewed  on a travel cooking show with Nancy Silverton (La Brea Bread founder) and Emeril Lagasse. He stated in Italian that his dough used “mother dough” and beer yeast. I took mother dough to mean sourdough rather than old dough in that context. My personal experiments to replicate his dough tried all the variants (fresh yeast, fresh yeast and old dough, beer yeast, Levain and Levain and beer yeast) and the Levain beer yeast combo was by far the best. I don’t know where to get “fresh” beer yeast readily so I used a saison beer yeast. The Levain was my own not one of the two Neopolitan cultures you can buy.

Im just an avid home cook and not making commercial quantities like you seem to be but my six dough ball batches came out great with a panel of foody friends, two pizza shop owners and four of us who have been to his restaurant outside of Naples. I used 500 grams of Levain for each 750 of flour. The water I had to play with a bit because I had to activate 11 grams of beer yeast in some water and then added more flour to achieve 60% hydration from the added beer yeast slurry.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2020, 12:13:33 PM »
The amount of "old" dough that can be added is highly variable depending upon the formulation and age of the old dough so the amount added will be application specific. When we studied this many years ago we found that, for the most part, we could add 15% (based on the total fresh dough weight) old dough without significantly impacting the performance of the new dough, so in your case the amount added will be something greater than 15%. I would suggest starting with 20% old dough addition and going up in 10% increments (30%, 40%, 50%, etc.) from there. Because the amount of old dough is being calculated on a "true %" basis (based on total dough weight as opposed to bakers percent) no other dough changes are generally needed. The end result is similar to that of using a biga or a "sponge" in making a dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: how much old dough in % for 1 kg flour new dough batch ?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2020, 04:32:33 PM »
I have seen both of these alleged Franco Pepi recipes before. The primary difference between the two is that the bootleg Italian references fresh beer yeast while the internet one references just fresh yeast. Ken Forkish’ book has yet another recipe associated with Pepi. He was also interviewed  on a travel cooking show with Nancy Silverton (La Brea Bread founder) and Emeril Lagasse. He stated in Italian that his dough used “mother dough” and beer yeast. I took mother dough to mean sourdough rather than old dough in that context. My personal experiments to replicate his dough tried all the variants (fresh yeast, fresh yeast and old dough, beer yeast, Levain and Levain and beer yeast) and the Levain beer yeast combo was by far the best. I don’t know where to get “fresh” beer yeast readily so I used a saison beer yeast. The Levain was my own not one of the two Neopolitan cultures you can buy.

Im just an avid home cook and not making commercial quantities like you seem to be but my six dough ball batches came out great with a panel of foody friends, two pizza shop owners and four of us who have been to his restaurant outside of Naples. I used 500 grams of Levain for each 750 of flour. The water I had to play with a bit because I had to activate 11 grams of beer yeast in some water and then added more flour to achieve 60% hydration from the added beer yeast slurry.

It sounds like your dough is coming out well but you might want to double check your yeast quantity - for Neapolitan style pizza, it is extremely high at 66.6% levain and 1.47% beer yeast.

For a time, I was obsessed with trying to understand Franco Pepe's dough and the two closest variants that he has suggested online are:

800g flour
500g water
22g salt
5g fresh yeast
A little pasta acida - old dough, looks like about 2-3 tbsp = 30g-45g?

and

For the dough (for 10 pizzas):
flour 1600 g
water 1000 g
carry-over paste or sourdough 30 g
salt 48 g
brewer's yeast 5 g

By multiple online accounts, he is using old dough, not sourdough levain. If you take a look at these two recipes, he's using the old dough in the 1.8%-4% range, along with fresh yeast in the 0.6-1.2% range.
Alex

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