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Author Topic: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2020, 09:04:40 PM »
It's a very nice result, not too many differences from the 1st pic actually from here. I wish I could try it  :P
Do you see a huge difference when folding as the video you added in your previous message? I mean VS classic folding or no folding? I'm thinking that for such a long fermentation (I guess it's a home fridge, with a temperature not as low and steady as one in a professional setting?) all that gluten development already weakened a lot?
Thank you Yael!
Yes I find it gives it more strength in less time than my previous stretch and fold method, it holds it shape better and is easier to do when handling very wet doughs.

I agree about the long fermentation problem in a regular fridge, thatís why Iím thinking in trying to do very carefully a final shape hours before baking it. I want to try it to see if it makes any difference.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2020, 06:47:06 AM »
There's also the possibility that because of the long fermentation with not an ideal container it lose a little of the strenght, from what I have read for long fermentated doughs I can try to do another shaping hrs before the bake.

FWIW, I've taken some courses in pizza in teglia / alla pala.  The method we were taught included 24/48 hours fridge maturation, but we were taught to remove the dough containers from the fridge, then scale and form rectangular loafs and then letting them proof at RT in rectangular dough containers for another 4 hours before extending and baking.  If the dough had already been scaled and was in it's own individual container we'd take it out and reshape it in order to give the dough more strength.  I think it's probably important to have enough strength in the dough, otherwise it'll be more difficult to move it into the teglia without it deforming too much.  I don't know what effect this has on the alveoli, it's something I'm still trying to figure out.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 06:59:32 AM by amolapizza »
Jack

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2020, 06:58:44 AM »

Excellent article. The recipe I tried twice was the third one which he claims he uses in his store. From various pizza shows featuring Bonci, they made a big deal how he bought his grains direct from Mulino Marino and ground them himself. I purchased through Bakery Bits UK the Burrato and Farro Integrale. Obviously not as fresh as locally purchased and milled but hood flours that I store well.  I will double check if there is more info on the Farro packaging. In any event, the Farro is hard to work with when you use any more than 20% in any dough I make including my whole multi grain SD bread. Iím going to dial back to recipe number two which is pretty close to your original suggestion.

Now, if you can help me with my Valoriani WFO for a better cook of my NPís :) ... but that is even further off topic.

I canít wait to travel again for more culinary adventure.

I can't help to think that recipe 3 will taste like carton! :D  But who knows maybe if it's thin enough and topped with the right combinations it will be very good.  I've also noted that Bonci seems to often make a very thin teglia, like 0.25g/cm2 instead of the more standard 0.5-0.6g/cm2.

He also often seems to put one thin sheet in the pan, then cover it with olive oil and add another sheet on top of it and then bake.  When done he lifts the upper sheet off, adds his fillings and put the upper sheet back on.  Either eaten like that straight away, or back into the oven in order to cook the filling.

Regarding farro I suspect that it's mostly spelt as it's the cheapest of the three!  I've bought Italian farro flour at times, and it's never stated what exact farro went into it.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2020, 01:08:53 PM »
FWIW, I've taken some courses in pizza in teglia / alla pala.  The method we were taught included 24/48 hours fridge maturation, but we were taught to remove the dough containers from the fridge, then scale and form rectangular loafs and then letting them proof at RT in rectangular dough containers for another 4 hours before extending and baking.  If the dough had already been scaled and was in it's own individual container we'd take it out and reshape it in order to give the dough more strength.  I think it's probably important to have enough strength in the dough, otherwise it'll be more difficult to move it into the teglia without it deforming too much.  I don't know what effect this has on the alveoli, it's something I'm still trying to figure out.
Makes sense, thank you for the actual details. No wonder why I've seen photos and videos of big pieces of dough after fermenting. So they let them fermet all together to divide and scale at the end. I can see this being more comfortable this way for my home setup. I also read of 72 fermentations, shape and another 24hrs in the fridge. All great ideas.

Thanks! now I have many options to try.


Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2020, 09:01:31 PM »
Ramiro,

Your pizza photos were inspirational and I was thinking of experimenting this weekend with your technique. A few questions if you have the time... After the 48 hour CF, did you let the dough warm up before stretching and getting it into the pan? How long (or what dough temperature)? My pans are 12x15 and I think I need ~380-400g per pan. Does that sound right to you? Do you know what temperature your refrigerator  maintains because I can use the beer fridge to mimic your conditions or adjust starter %. 

Your starter % departs from the usually reliable Forum preferment calculator recommendations but Iím guessing the RT folding and stretching time and post CF warmup period balance that out to result in your great looking pizza. Thus my questions about CF temp and time at RT.

 Obviously, my flour mix will be different than you used so I was going to try half Giustoís High Performer and half Burrato. The other difference is that I will try bulk fermentation and divide the dough after I take it out of the refrigerator to warm up.

Sapp

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Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2020, 12:42:43 PM »
Ramiro,

Your pizza photos were inspirational and I was thinking of experimenting this weekend with your technique. A few questions if you have the time... After the 48 hour CF, did you let the dough warm up before stretching and getting it into the pan? How long (or what dough temperature)? My pans are 12x15 and I think I need ~380-400g per pan. Does that sound right to you? Do you know what temperature your refrigerator  maintains because I can use the beer fridge to mimic your conditions or adjust starter %. 

Your starter % departs from the usually reliable Forum preferment calculator recommendations but Iím guessing the RT folding and stretching time and post CF warmup period balance that out to result in your great looking pizza. Thus my questions about CF temp and time at RT.

 Obviously, my flour mix will be different than you used so I was going to try half Giustoís High Performer and half Burrato. The other difference is that I will try bulk fermentation and divide the dough after I take it out of the refrigerator to warm up.

Sapp

Sorry for the late reply Sapp, I let them warm up at RT for 3-4 hrs.

Personally I don't think 380-400g is enough for the size of your pan unless you want it thin. Reviewing other examples from shops in Italy I found they work with a thickness factor of around .135 to .14 another formula that I found from an Italian Pizzaiolo was to multiply width(cm) X length(cm) X 0.65 = Total ball weight. So for your pan I will go for 680 to 715gr.

My fridge is at 6 degrees Celsius.

The flour I use is very standard (not unbleached or organic sadly) it just has high protein 14%

Sounds great, can wait to see your results!

Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2020, 08:59:42 PM »
First to Jack and Alex. I kept digging into Bonci flour and did see further reference to Triticum Monococcum as you suggested. The other ďah haĒ for me was that he uses buratto ground to 0 or 1 because Marino specially grinds his flours for him... it is fresher, and since finer ground, perhaps has even more of the bran sifted out. The only buratto available to consumers that I am aware of is Tipo 2.

To Ramiro, I tried to follow your recipe, dough handling and work plan. I made three trays... pea purťe with asparagus, ricotta, chives, smoked salt and a drizzle of EVOO. Tray two was San Marzano tomato sauce, Fior di latte and homemade turkey-fennel  sausage. The third was roasted Cherry peppers, garlic and EVOO with a 36 month red cow parmigiana reggiano. The bottom line was that they were very edible, tasted great, had good texture but not Pizzarium and not 100% of what I was going for. I cooked each tray individually to be able to adjust cooking time and temperature. I used your time and temperature for pizza number 1 but it was undercooked in the middle. I had best results with 475 for 12 minutes , sauce the pizza then back in for another 10 minutes.

The other details:
1. 50/50 Burrato high extraction flour and Giustoís Organic High Performer flour 1000g
2. Your recipe with 200g starter, 40g EVOO and 20g of salt.
3. I had the same timing problem with my starter that you had on your first run as my starter was at peak when I began the 3 hour autolyse so I did a mini feed and it was fine.
4. Followed the laminattion and coil dough handling techniques from the videos which mean ~5 hours of RT bulk fermentation after the autolyse
5. 38 hours of CF at 40F
6. RT for 4-6 hours for pizzas 1-3.
7. Followed Bonciís  dough handling You Tube
8. I have a whole house water softener and reverse osmosis so very soft water. Slightly hard water is better for dough but I was too lazy to go over to another property to get our towns unsoftened tap water
9. I do not oil my Lloyd pans. Do you?

Bottom line (after I got time and temperature right) is an airy, flaky but crisp dough with good flavor. I would have like the crispness on the bottom and sides but a cooked but slightly less crisp center. No doubt my dough was just a touch denser due to the use of the buratto. My wife loved the pizza so thatís something.

Thank you for inspiring me to make another try.

Sapp

« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 09:07:15 PM by Sapp »

Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2020, 09:09:18 PM »
Obligatory photos

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2020, 10:56:41 PM »
First to Jack and Alex. I kept digging into Bonci flour and did see further reference to Triticum Monococcum as you suggested. The other ďah haĒ for me was that he uses buratto ground to 0 or 1 because Marino specially grinds his flours for him... it is fresher, and since finer ground, perhaps has even more of the bran sifted out. The only buratto available to consumers that I am aware of is Tipo 2.

Sapp, glad you had a good time making the pizza. It looks nicely crunchy.

Do you have any sources/links to info that suggest that Bonci's burrato is ground finer? I have read 2 of Bonci's books including the newest one. in Italian and haven't seen anything about Mulino Marino custom grinding for him or that his buratto is ground finer. If he wanted a finer grind, surely he could just use their 0 or 00 flours instead? My understanding is that they do not make any tipo 1. It's either Integrale, 2, 0 or 00.

I also know that Bonci sells the normal Buratto flour in his pizzeria because my friend bought some for me when she visited Pizzarium...I doubt he would sell the stuff if he didn't think it was good for pizza. But if you want a really airy open crust, I would use no more than 40% Buratto in combination with a strong white flour like Caputo Nuvola Super or Polselli Super.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 10:59:19 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2020, 08:53:24 AM »
https://www.elizabethminchilli.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-gabriele-bonci/

This is one of the places the grind came up. He has to be doing SOMETHING different to make his allegedly 50/50 Burrato whole grain ďFarroĒ come out like that! Youíve read his 2012 book (2013 English translation).

The fact that he gets his flour ďjust in timeĒ freshly ground for him weekly came from one of two pizza shows... possibly The Pizza Show - Rome episode. It is also mentioned in a Pizza book written by Marc Vetri, a Philadelphia based restauranteur with a Michelin star who also had a series of less formal places doing high quality pizza.

Anyway, you are certainly right that a mere mortal like myself would benefit from dialing back the Buratto. I do serve non whole grain pizzas to family and guests while I pursue making the best whole and blended grain pizzas... sometimes with good success.

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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2020, 09:33:26 AM »
Alex and Ramiro,

A couple of other details I can clean up as well. I tried but didnít do a good enough job following Bonciís advice to push down edges and sauce to the edge. I also did not lightly oil the pan. The manufacturer does not recommend it but Bonci does and I think it would add to the texture contrast within the dough. Despite having my dough easily get worked to fit the pan it pulled away from the sides (shrunk) 1-1.5cm... thoughts? Ramiroís 680g dough size estimate was very helpful though.

Back to flour... several other sources describe Franco Pepeís (Pepe in Grani) just in time fresh ground proprietary flour process similar to Bonciís. In Pepeís case it was a different mill in Piemonte. It may have been on a Netflix or Amazon TV show with Emeril Lagasse touring with Nancy Silverton and they did the obligatory visit to each of his suppliers.

Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2020, 05:22:18 PM »
Alex and Ramiro,

A couple of other details I can clean up as well. I tried but didnít do a good enough job following Bonciís advice to push down edges and sauce to the edge. I also did not lightly oil the pan. The manufacturer does not recommend it but Bonci does and I think it would add to the texture contrast within the dough. Despite having my dough easily get worked to fit the pan it pulled away from the sides (shrunk) 1-1.5cm... thoughts? Ramiroís 680g dough size estimate was very helpful though.

Back to flour... several other sources describe Franco Pepeís (Pepe in Grani) just in time fresh ground proprietary flour process similar to Bonciís. In Pepeís case it was a different mill in Piemonte. It may have been on a Netflix or Amazon TV show with Emeril Lagasse touring with Nancy Silverton and they did the obligatory visit to each of his suppliers.

Hey Sapp so happy that the recipe worked for you at least for a good taste and texture, the pictures and topping combinations look amazing. I understand that you didnít get the crumb and height you wanted and I think thatís probably because of the high percentage of burrato as others mentioned. Depending of your priorities if you want first to get the same crumb and height I will start mainly with strong flour and once you get your desired result then you start to add more flours.

I donít oil my tray, I know Bonci does but only in his classes and books, to make it easy for home bakers and their variety of trays. But Iíve seen in videos, pizzarium workers transfer the dough to the pan without oil. I also have Lloyd pans and I agree they donít need oil.

Iíve been working on a different process now to make it easy for me but now going for 72hrs. First try was a failure at the end since I did not Re-shape it and after the 3 days and getting to RT the dough was too weak to do the transfer, I end up with a deformed pie. I have 2 more doughs in the fridge, today will be the 2nd day so I will reshape them back to the fridge and bake them tomorrow. Hoping for the best. Iíll share my results.

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