A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Pale base, sad face.  (Read 800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Pale base, sad face.
« on: November 15, 2020, 09:58:55 PM »
Hi guys!

I've been working on my pizza making for a few months now, but I'm struggling with getting the bottom of the base nicely browned. I didn't get a picture of the base of my most recent pizza, but I'll attach a pic of the top in case it's at all useful.

My method is as follows:

(makes 4)

600g Strong white bread flour
approx 1 teaspoon of sugar
approx 2 teaspoons of salt
approx 2 teaspoons of dry active bakers yeast

400ml room temp water.
approx 3 teaspoons olive oil


1. Mix dry ingredients 
2. Make well add olive oil, and slowly incorporate water
3. Mix dough with a wooden spoon
4. Kneed dough, adding additional flour, until workable and it seems 'right'
5. Portion into 4 balls, place into well oiled, covered bowls and ferment in the fridge for 48 hours.
6. Hand stretch the dough about half way and dip smooth side into flour.
7. Transfer dough onto peel lightly sprinkled with semolina
8. Stretch dough the rest of the way on the peel
9. Add sauce, cheeses & toppings
10. Transfer onto a pizza stone heated in the fan oven at 275c for 50 minutes.
11. Bake for 7 minutes

The above method has resulted in some decent pizzas, but I never really get any colour on the base, and sometimes I notice it's soft.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!




Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6843
  • Age: 60
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2020, 11:25:48 PM »
Mushroompizzagirl, more sugar may help with browning. If I figured right, 1 tap sugar is 4.2 g. 4.2 is 0.7% in 600 g flour. You could easily take this up to 2% sugar and see what happens. That would be 12 g sugar or approximately 2.86 tsp. Thatís what I would try first. Good luck.
-Tony

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 01:30:00 AM »
I'm betting that if you read the label on the bag of flour that it will not mention anything about the addition of malted barley flour or enzymes. This would be an indication that you do not have a malted flour. The two options then would be to add more sugar ot to buy some diastatic malt and add that to the dough. With the malt products that you have available to you locally you will need to add between 1 and 2%.
On a different note, I'd suggest investing in a low cost scale as well as a dial/stem type thermometer, this will allow you to begin scaling your ingredients as opposed to using "estimated" volumetric portions for your "recipe". With all of your ingredients in weight measures it will be easy to convert the formula into bakers percent which will then allow you to begin making effective changes to the formula to achieve your specific desired characteristics. By weighing your ingredients you will also significantly improve the consistency of your pizzas from one bake to another.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 29907
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2020, 09:50:34 AM »
Mushroompizzagirl,

As a point of clarification, is your yeast an "instant" dry yeast that can be added directly to the other dry ingredients or is is an "active" dry yeast that has to first be activated in warm water?

Peter

Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2020, 09:52:13 AM »
I'm betting that if you read the label on the bag of flour that it will not mention anything about the addition of malted barley flour or enzymes.

The two options then would be to add more sugar ot to buy some diastatic malt and add that to the dough. With the malt products that you have available to you locally you will need to add between 1 and 2%.

Your prediction is correct! I'm going to try with more sugar next time and report back.


On a different note, I'd suggest investing in a low cost scale as well as a dial/stem type thermometer, this will allow you to begin scaling your ingredients as opposed to using "estimated" volumetric portions for your "recipe".

I actually already have a digital scale, and I will weigh my sugar/yeast/salt from now on, rather than relying on volumetric measures. Would anybody be able to instruct me in the proper use of the dial/stem thermometer or link me to an explanatory thread?

Thanks so much for the advice so far

-Emily

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2020, 09:55:53 AM »
Mushroompizzagirl,

As a point of clarification, is your yeast an "instant" dry yeast that can be added directly to the other dry ingredients or is is an "active" dry yeast that has to first be activated in warm water?

Peter

To tell you the truth, I didn't realise there was a difference until now. The yeast is 'dried active' but I bought the tub recently and was previously using instant dried yeast. Does this mean that I should be activating the yeast in warm water?

Thanks
-Emily

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 29907
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2020, 10:02:23 AM »
To tell you the truth, I didn't realise there was a difference until now. The yeast is 'dried active' but I bought the tub recently and was previously using instant dried yeast. Does this mean that I should be activating the yeast in warm water?

Thanks
-Emily
Emily,

If the yeast is what we call active dry yeast here in the US, then, yes, you should prehydrate the active dry yeast in a portion of the formula water that weighs about five times the weight of the yeast, and that water should be around 105 degrees F. The yeast mixture should be prehydrated for about ten minutes.

It also isn't entirely clear whether you are mixing the dough by hand or by machine. Also, Tom Lehmann advocates that the oil be added to the dough later in the mixing process, not up front with the water.

Peter

Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2020, 10:08:52 AM »

It also isn't entirely clear whether you are mixing the dough by hand or by machine. Also, Tom Lehmann advocates that the oil be added to the dough later in the mixing process, not up front with the water.

Peter

I'm mixing the dough entirely by hand, I wish I had a mixer but unfortunately I don't. Is there any advantage of using active yeast over instant yeast? If not I think I will just buy new instant yeast.

Thank you so much for your time

-Emily

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 29907
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2020, 10:17:34 AM »
I'm mixing the dough entirely by hand, I wish I had a mixer but unfortunately I don't. Is there any advantage of using active yeast over instant yeast? If not I think I will just buy new instant yeast.

Thank you so much for your time

-Emily
Emily,

You are welcome.

You can go either way on the yeast but if you decide to go with instant dry yeast, you will still want to prehydrate that yeast as I described. That is because you are kneading the dough by hand. Otherwise, you could just add the instant dry yeast directly to the other ingredients.

Peter

Offline Rolls

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1274
  • Location: Hogtown
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2020, 11:12:00 AM »
Would anybody be able to instruct me in the proper use of the dial/stem thermometer or link me to an explanatory thread?

Emily,
The stem thermometer has a metal prong which is inserted in the interior of whatever you are trying to take the temperature of.  In pizza making, it's useful for taking the temperature of the water, the flour and the dough itself.  This information is useful in regulating your fermentation schedule.  The more expensive models give you a quicker reading, but an inexpensive model will serve you just as well.  I recommend something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008AK5RBO/?tag=pmak-20

Rolls
Getting old, memory is the second thing to go......Can't remember the first.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2020, 11:24:53 AM »
Rolls,

Many thanks for the recommendation, as I am located in the UK that model is unavailable for me on Amazon but I have purchased an equivalent.

Would you be so kind as to direct me to some more information about fermentation schedules?

Thanks again
Emily   

Offline Rolls

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1274
  • Location: Hogtown
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2020, 01:01:25 PM »
Would you be so kind as to direct me to some more information about fermentation schedules?

Emily,

When making pizza, whether commercially or at home, you want to make sure the dough is viable at the time you want to use it, in order to produce a good finished product.  You don't want it to be under or over fermented and it should have the right balance of extensibility and elasticity so that it easier to work with at the time of stretching.  Since temperature is the main driver of fermentation (as the Dough Doctor often reminds us), the thermometer becomes a useful tool in timing the development of your dough.

A stem thermometer will help you activate your yeast properly and also help determine your desired dough temperature (DDT).  This is done by taking into account the ambient air temperature, the temperature of the flour and, above all, the temperature of the water.  If using a mixer, the friction factor, ie. the heat generated by mechanical mixing, also needs to be taken into account.  Generally, an acceptable temperature range for the interior of the dough at the end of mixing is between 75-80F.  For simple hand mixing, the temperature of the WATER is calculated as follows: multiply the desired dough temperature (DDT) by 2, then subtract the flour temperature and the air temperature.  Beyond that, the temperature at which you store the dough (eg. room temperature, refrigerator, wine cellar etc.) will have an effect on the condition of the dough at the time of stretching. 

If you're just starting, I would just follow the protocols of an established formula and procedure, such as the Lehmann NY style pizza:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.0

You can also check out the fermentation tables created by one of our members, TXCraig1:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0


Rolls
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 01:10:40 PM by Rolls »
Getting old, memory is the second thing to go......Can't remember the first.

Offline dragonspawn

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 78
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2020, 11:47:30 AM »
I would say that the easiest upgrade that you may be able to do is invest in pizza steel not stone. 4 times the conductivity should take care of the color issue nicely. There are some available in europe for around 50 GBP


Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2020, 01:26:41 AM »
Hey just to update anyone who cares.

Being on this forum has caused me to rethink my attitude towards making pizza. I was treating it like cooking- I don't like to measure too much and prefer to just rely on experience. This might work with making pasta dishes but pizza making is a science!

I've applied much of the advice I've got in this thread, and I'm astounded by the results. My Pizza has gone from mediocre to amazing!! I'm so happy and grateful.

My updated method is as follows:

635g Strong Bread Flour
370g water measured at 40c (104f)
12g salt
12g sugar
12g olive oil
6g yeast

I believe that recipe would be expressed in bakers percentage like so:

100% flour
58.27% water
1.89% salt
1.89% sugar
1.89% olive oil
0.94% yeast

1. Activate the yeast in 30ml of the water for 10 minutes
2. Combine dry ingredients
3. Slowly incorporate water (including yeast water) with the end of a wooden spoon
4. Once it's too sticky to mix anymore, kneed with hands (approx 10 minutes)
5. Add oil and kneed until incorporated
6. Portion into 4 balls into lightly oiled, covered bowls, refrigerate
7. Wait 46 hours
8. Remove dough from the fridge, wait 2 more hours (it temped at 18c/64f before stretching)
9. Hand stretch dough to approx 10", dip smooth side in flour
10. Place on semolina sprinkled peel and top (grated cheese kept in the fridge before topping)
11. Bake for 7-8 minutes at 275c/527 on pizza stone in a home oven, turning after 4.

I am soo happy with the results!

However being something of a perfectionist I have some questions:

1. I struggled with defining the cornice with the warmer dough, it might just be that I'm used to the texture of dough that comes straight from the fridge, but as a result my cheese leaked over the edge of the pizza on one side. I think the doughballs ended up about 10% smaller than normal, so would increasing their size make it easier to define a cornice?

2. I fermented for 46 hours, one of four balls deflated in the fridge and all four had a slightly unpleasant beery/yeasty smell. Are these signs of overfermentation and would I be better severed by a 24h ferment next time?

3. The cheese seems to be separating a bit in the oven. I use Galbani Mozzarella Cucina, as In my part of the UK there's few options. Aside from getting different cheese (which I'm looking into) is there anything else I can be doing to get more browning and less separation/orange grease ?

4. I bought an infrared thermometer to measure my stone. I've noticed that the back of my oven is about 30c hotter than the front. Even with the stone pushed back as far as it goes, I've noticed a difference in the browning of the base and the cheese which I attribute to this disparity within the oven. I tried turning the pizza at 4 minutes to mitigate this but I still ended up with noticeably more browning on one side. Has anyone got any advice to help with this?

I just want to take the opportunity to thank everyone who has replied to this thread for their help. Having tasted the way pizza with this method tastes, I cannot go back. The finished product had such a great taste and texture. Chewy, slightly crispy and really really delicious! Thank you all!!

Offline Mushroompizzagirl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: London
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2020, 01:32:26 AM »
oh and just to be completely candid, the left picture seen above is a few months old (when I used to roll dough) but my last pizza's base looked exactly like this so it is still illustrative.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 29907
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pale base, sad face.
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2020, 01:21:43 PM »
Emily,

Here are my thoughts on your questions.

Q1: I calculated your dough batch weight at 1047 grams, or 36.93 ounces. Dividing by four yields a single dough ball weight of 9.23 ounces. If you tried to make 10" pizzas out of your four dough balls, the dough loading factor (aka thickness factor) comes to 9.23/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.11756. That is characteristic of what many pizza chains in the US use to make American style pizzas (aka Papa John's, Domino's, etc.). If you were careful as not to press the dough ball all the way to the outer edge, such that the entire rim was flat, you might have been able to get a cornice. To improve your chances, you can make larger dough balls and make larger rims without materially increasing the thickness of the skin within the cornice.

Q2: It appears to me that your dough overfermented, as evidenced by the aromas you detected and the deflation of one of the dough balls. I think your yeast quantity was too high for a 46-hour fermentation period. I think you would have achieved better results if you uses a 24-hour fermentation. You can also cut the amount of yeast by about half and then go out to about 48 hours or more of cold fermentation.

Q3 and Q4: I am not the best one to address the cheese question other than to say that many people like the separation grease. If not, one can use a paper towel to pick up the grease. The same approach applies to using greasy meats like pepperoni.  Another way to address the cheese browning issue, for which there may be several approached depending on the type of oven used and how it is managed. To give you and idea, I once put together several oven approaches that can be used in a typical home setting using standard ovens, pizza stones, steel, pizza screens, etc. The post where I did this is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You have come a long way with your pizza making and I congratulate you for doing so ;D.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T