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Author Topic: Need some advices for napolitean dough  (Read 1389 times)

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Offline charlo489

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Need some advices for napolitean dough
« on: January 03, 2021, 06:22:02 PM »
All right guys, so for the past year, I've been trying to make neapolitan pizza so I bought a koda 16" and while the pizzas are great, I can't get a fluffy, airy crust. It's always dense and chewy with tiny bubbles and when I cut my slices, the ends of the crust tend to get pinched and stays pinched. I'm using a local flour brand, made for pizzas but don't know anything about it (malted or not or protein content) and I also tried a caputo classica (all purpose) but got more or less the same result. Here's my recipe,  using pizz app :

water : 61% (95F)
salt : 3%
yeast : 0.1% (IDY)
room temperature fermentation of 12h at 70F roughly.

I typically mix the dough, and limit my kneading by hand to the minimum (like 1 minute) but I also tried 5 minutes. I then let the dough rest for 20 minutes and then do 4 strech and fold with 5-10 minutes rest between them and finally ball them for the fermentation. I also tried a 6 hours rest before balling them but got the same results. I've watched a couple of videos regarding how to open the balls and I'm pretty sure I'm doing ok there, not touching the rim and carefully pushing the gas to the rim. I then shoot the pie in the koda, which I preheat for 40 minutes at least (750-800F in the center).


So here's a pic and if you have any ideas, let me know because I have no idea on how to improve this. I'm gonna get some caputo pizzeria flour next week for the first time (extremely hard to get around here) so I'm gonna try that but I don't think it's gonna improve my results. Should I knead more ? How do I know if fermentation is fully completed ? It seems to be based on feeling more or less as opposed to beer brewing where you can measure it

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2021, 07:45:40 PM »
A couple of questions, - what is the weight of the dough ball and the size of the final pizza?
                                - how long is the full fermentation, Bulk and ball?
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2021, 08:18:52 PM »
charlo489,

To add to Greg's questions, can you tell us more about the flour you have been using, and a bit more about how you mix and knead the dough? And did you measure the finished dough temperature? And can you tell us how long you baked the pizza? You also mentioned that the temperature of your oven at the center is 750-780 F at the center? Is that the temperature at the rim of a pizza?

Also, you might take a look at Craig's chart at Reply 188 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349 (click to enlarge)

According to Craig's chart, a dough that is to ferment at around 70 degrees for 12 hours only needs about 0.06% IDY. By his own admission, Greg's chart isn't perfect but it is a good place to start.

I also seems to me that 3% salt is on the high side even though it is in the ballpark for the Neapolitan style, especially when it is a hot climate and it is desirable to slow down the rate of fermentation. But seeing that you are in Quebec, Canada where it is currently around 25 degrees F, you might try reducing the amount of salt.

A while back, I created a list of factors that are implicated in the oven spring of doughs. You might take a look at the list to see if you can identify any of the factors that might have been responsible for the results you achieved. The list can be seen at Reply 515 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559;topicseen#msg104559

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Offline wotavidone

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2021, 09:44:56 PM »
To me that pizza crust looks like bread.
People assure me that North American wheat flours are quite high protein.
Look for lower protein flour, mix it only until you have a smooth surface on the doughball, ferment it in bulk for 18 hours, then ball it and let the doughballs rest until the gluten relaxes and lets them be more of a cow pat than a ball.
P.S. it also looks like it has been cooked for more than 90 seconds.
Mick

Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2021, 10:00:31 PM »
Okay so dough balls are 260g, and I stretch them to the max I can, about 12-13". I normally ferment 12h, no bulk, I ball them after a 20 minutes rest.

Peter, I'm afraid I can't figure out much details about the flour I'm using, but here's what I could find : https://lamilanaise.com/en/product/organic-tipo-00-pizza-flour/

For the mixing, I measure my water (95F), mix in the salt and then dissolve the IDY. I add half of the flour and mix with my fingers and then add the rest. After that, I pinch the dough with my fingers and once it's well mixed (it looks rough but everything's is properly mixed),  I let it rest for 20 minutes. Then I do some strech and folds and it becomes smooth and shiny. I ball them after that immediately. The finished dough temperature is 80F. Is that temperature correct ?

I never time my bakes, but it's definitely under 2 minutes, it's very fast. The temperature at the rim of the pizza is very inconsistent with this oven. It's got an L shaped burner so the back left corner gets very hot, like 950F but the opposite front right corner is around 600-650F but I turn the pizza 4 times to get an even browning.

Now for the salt, it's one of the only variable I haven't played with, by default PizzApp set it a 3%. You are correct that it's quite cold here in Quebec right now so I'm gonna try 2%, is that reasonable ?



I used to brew beer a lot, and one thing you learn when brewing is that fermentation control is everything. I have a feeling my fermentation is sketchy. How do you guys know when the balls are ready ?

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Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2021, 10:02:35 PM »
another variable I'm not so sure is correct is hydration. I'm doing 61-62% all the times

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2021, 10:29:50 PM »
Please post more pictures including the top and bottoms. It's hard to tell much from just a crust shot though that looks like a lot more dough that 260g stretched to 12-13". I'd have guessed more like 300g.
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Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2021, 11:01:31 PM »
impossible, I always weight them before balling them, I aim for 260g each but often end up with 250-255g. Here are a few pictures, they're not related to the firsts pic but you'll get an idea


Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2021, 11:01:55 PM »
.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 10:03:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2021, 11:02:39 PM »
sorry I have no bottom shots though

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Offline Yael

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Re: need your advice, I'm lost
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 01:30:29 AM »
Hello,

For the state of the fermentation, something that helped me a lot is the drawing that I shared in reply 10 here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55839.0
0.1% IDY for 12H at this temperature doesn't look wrong  :-\, but maybe it's still under-fermented...
IMO it's not related to dough kneading - if it is, then you over-kneaded (gluten is tighter and makes a tighter crumb).

FYI you can also have a look at my Youtube video , it's in French but you should be able to get subtitles. For the same IDY amount, I make an overnight CF then 4~5H at RT (hotter than yours, maybe you'll need 6 to 8H). And I use a random Russian flour which doesn't seem to be specially designed for baking, unlike Caputo's.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 10:51:06 AM »
Okay so dough balls are 260g, and I stretch them to the max I can, about 12-13". I normally ferment 12h, no bulk, I ball them after a 20 minutes rest.

Peter, I'm afraid I can't figure out much details about the flour I'm using, but here's what I could find : https://lamilanaise.com/en/product/organic-tipo-00-pizza-flour/

For the mixing, I measure my water (95F), mix in the salt and then dissolve the IDY. I add half of the flour and mix with my fingers and then add the rest. After that, I pinch the dough with my fingers and once it's well mixed (it looks rough but everything's is properly mixed),  I let it rest for 20 minutes. Then I do some strech and folds and it becomes smooth and shiny. I ball them after that immediately. The finished dough temperature is 80F. Is that temperature correct ?

I never time my bakes, but it's definitely under 2 minutes, it's very fast. The temperature at the rim of the pizza is very inconsistent with this oven. It's got an L shaped burner so the back left corner gets very hot, like 950F but the opposite front right corner is around 600-650F but I turn the pizza 4 times to get an even browning.

Now for the salt, it's one of the only variable I haven't played with, by default PizzApp set it a 3%. You are correct that it's quite cold here in Quebec right now so I'm gonna try 2%, is that reasonable ?

I used to brew beer a lot, and one thing you learn when brewing is that fermentation control is everything. I have a feeling my fermentation is sketchy. How do you guys know when the balls are ready ?
charlo489,

To begin, it looks like the the flour you are using should work for the Neapolitan style. Also, your finished dough temperature looks to be OK. I also assume that you stirred the salt in the water before adding the IDY. Is that correct?

Since you are hand kneading, the late Tom Lehmann suggested that when hand kneading one should prehydrate the IDY in water at around 100 degrees F for about ten minutes. The prehydrated IDY can then be added to the rest of the ingredients. The portion of the formula water to be used to prehydrate the IDY is about five times the weight of the IDY. Here are a couple of posts where Tom comments on this matter:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36136.msg359896;topicseen#msg359896, and

Reply 7 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60963.msg609621;topicseen#msg609621

I also note that you did not let the dough ferment in bulk and then form into individual dough balls. That is the traditional approach used in Naples. Typically, the dough might be fermented in bulk for about 12 hours, at a recommended temperature of 64-68 degrees F, and then formed into individual dough balls that would ferment for about another 4-5 hours. That was the method recommended by one of our members, pizzanapoletana (Marco) who is an expert on the Neapolitan style of pizza as practiced in Naples. In this respect, you might find these posts helpful:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5969.msg51204;topicseen#msg51204,

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28286.msg285395;topicseen#msg285395, and

Reply 12 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1471.msg13648;topicseen#msg13648

Peter




Offline schold

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 12:24:38 PM »
I don't think it looks that bad. Tiny bubbles are what you should aim for, I think, but many people prefer large, big holes. I would try less dough near the edge.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

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Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2021, 02:30:31 PM »
Less dough around the edge ? Interesting and that might explain why TxCraig thought that my balls were 300g. How much should I aim, like 1cm ?

I'm doing a test right now, 2 batches with 2 different flours (caputo classica and la milanaise 00), 2% salt instead of 3, hydration 63%, after kneading the doughs were at 78F. I will bulk ferment them for 8 hours or so and then ball them for another 20 hours. All of that at room temperature, 66F.

When bulk fermenting, do you spread flour in the bowl or oil to prevent the dough from sticking ?

Offline charlo489

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2021, 03:01:00 PM »
oh and I made a small door for my koda 16, to help the floor heating up more evenly. Hope that will help my floor temp

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Need some advices for napolitean dough
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2021, 12:52:17 PM »
Charlo, your pizza looks very nicely baked from the top!

To make the cornicione structure more Neapolitan, you need to learn to push air from the center of the dough to the edges during stretching. This will give you a more open and airy structure in the rim. This video shows it done well at about 5:40s:

Alex

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