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Author Topic: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?  (Read 2457 times)

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Offline Ponchopizza

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2021, 01:31:05 PM »
That's really interesting. In fact, I also recently had an email exchange with Fabrizio Casucci, a pizza instructor from Italy. Fabrizio told me that a new method used nowadays is to ferment dough for 48 hours at 10C, with 24 hours in bulk and 24 in ball. Sounds a lot like Seirinkan except the 2C difference! This is one of the reasons I was so curious about trying it.

My initial impression is that these warmer than fridge temps provide a softer dough with a more buttery flavor than a regular fridge ferment, but that if you're not careful, the doughs can ferment too quickly and run out of sugars just like a poolish/biga dough, resulting in a paler crust. More experiments are needed to be sure.

I have been splitting bulk and ball times for a while with great results (though much colder). 48-72 hours bulk, and 24-72 hours balled. Again, this is all sourdough, so that changes things.
Aaron

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2021, 03:30:11 PM »
Poncho, I'm sure others might disagree, but I have heard multiple Italian pizzaiolo pros say that anything longer than 24-48 hours is, as they call it, an "exaggeration". You can do it, but nothing is gained. On the other hand, you have a limited number of reducing sugars in your dough. If you ferment too long, the sugars are gone, your dough tastes only sour as opposed to sweet+sour, and will not brown, will only burn in the oven. Also, sourdough has strong protease action - the protease enzymes slowly degrade the protein structure of your dough resulting in poor rising, hard to handle and poor performing dough. To me, the benefits of anything past 48 hours are not worth the risk. The only exception might be Pizza in Teglia using very strong flours, but not for Neapolitan style.

My take on sourdough temperatures is that 77F-80F is great for short term fermentations like same day bread and 63-65F is ideal for fermenting pizza (see TxCraig's amazing 48h recipe in the Sticky of the Neapolitan forum). I haven't tried 12C for sourdough, but I suspect it will be too cold and the fermentation will be too slow. You can get around that by using higher % of starter, but I think less starter and 63-65F is better for pizza. On another note, a really nice method for pizza with sourdough is using 15-20% starter, 3-4h RT bulk, 12-24h CT bulk, 6h RT ball. No need for wine fridge and results are also very good.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 03:32:17 PM by DoouBall »
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Offline Ponchopizza

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2021, 05:30:52 PM »
Poncho, I'm sure others might disagree, but I have heard multiple Italian pizzaiolo pros say that anything longer than 24-48 hours is, as they call it, an "exaggeration". You can do it, but nothing is gained. On the other hand, you have a limited number of reducing sugars in your dough. If you ferment too long, the sugars are gone, your dough tastes only sour as opposed to sweet+sour, and will not brown, will only burn in the oven. Also, sourdough has strong protease action - the protease enzymes slowly degrade the protein structure of your dough resulting in poor rising, hard to handle and poor performing dough. To me, the benefits of anything past 48 hours are not worth the risk. The only exception might be Pizza in Teglia using very strong flours, but not for Neapolitan style.

My take on sourdough temperatures is that 77F-80F is great for short term fermentations like same day bread and 63-65F is ideal for fermenting pizza (see TxCraig's amazing 48h recipe in the Sticky of the Neapolitan forum). I haven't tried 12C for sourdough, but I suspect it will be too cold and the fermentation will be too slow. You can get around that by using higher % of starter, but I think less starter and 63-65F is better for pizza. On another note, a really nice method for pizza with sourdough is using 15-20% starter, 3-4h RT bulk, 12-24h CT bulk, 6h RT ball. No need for wine fridge and results are also very good.

This is great info. Thank you. I have been getting good results using the long, cold ferments. Maybe because the temp is SO low and fermentation is therefore SO slow? I started experimenting this way based on Infoodel's 'Nearlypolitan' recipe, where he had excellent results in a home oven using long cold ferments. I kept pushing it and pushing it and the results have been good. The dough is beautiful. Silky smooth, easily extensible, plenty of spring, not too sour, good color. The only thing that I am searching for is more crisp, which I may never get in the home oven (I had one pizza, ONE, that was absolutely perfect. Perfect color, perfect crisp that lasted even after it cooled. Everything. Not to be seen since. Sigh). As I've mentioned, I would like to try some intermediate temps and shorter times for this dough, so maybe this info will pay dividends. I am already at 20% starter, so I think I'll try '3-4h RT bulk, 12-24h CT bulk, 6h RT ball'. Currently: 72-96hr CT bulk -> 24-48 CT ball -> 8hr RT ball. I'd love to speed that up, maybe the 3-4 RT bulk to start will do the trick.

Also, my wife is closing tomorrow on a second home with a big yard (we live in the city), so I'll be building an oven, hopefully this spring. I can start a whole new batch of experiments! Can't wait.
Aaron

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2021, 01:40:04 PM »
I'm really excited for you - sounds like good things are coming up!

If you want the crispiest pizza, I suggest you put your pizza on a metal wire cooling rack right out of the oven and let it cool for 5-10 minutes. Then throw it back in for 30-60 seconds or enough to melt the cheese again (might be longer in a home oven). It will be much crispier. Also, use less water in your dough - the more water you have, the more water has to evaporate before you get a crispy pie. Italians usually use 55-60% hydration when shooting for a crispy pizza. I had great results with 60% hydration and 3% oil. I am not a crispy pie guy, but I read several times that using seed oil (corn, soy, sunflower) leads to a crispier pizza than using EVOO. 
Alex

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Offline Ponchopizza

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2021, 09:38:11 AM »
I'm really excited for you - sounds like good things are coming up!

If you want the crispiest pizza, I suggest you put your pizza on a metal wire cooling rack right out of the oven and let it cool for 5-10 minutes. Then throw it back in for 30-60 seconds or enough to melt the cheese again (might be longer in a home oven). It will be much crispier. Also, use less water in your dough - the more water you have, the more water has to evaporate before you get a crispy pie. Italians usually use 55-60% hydration when shooting for a crispy pizza. I had great results with 60% hydration and 3% oil. I am not a crispy pie guy, but I read several times that using seed oil (corn, soy, sunflower) leads to a crispier pizza than using EVOO.

Thank you, again! More great info. I have tried adding oil, with middling results, but it was Olive Oil, so maybe I'll try seed oil. As to low hydration, I would worry about extensibility and oven spring, but I am willing to give it a shot.
Aaron

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2021, 10:43:28 AM »
Thank you, again! More great info. I have tried adding oil, with middling results, but it was Olive Oil, so maybe I'll try seed oil. As to low hydration, I would worry about extensibility and oven spring, but I am willing to give it a shot.

Extensibility will not be a problem if you use an extensible flour designed for pizza such as Caputo Pizzeria, Polselli Classica or similar. These flours are designed and tested to be extensible in 55-60% hydration doughs. Oven spring however will definitely be less than a highly hydrated dough - it's hard to make a dough that puffs up a lot AND gets crispy, unless you bake it for an extended time.
Alex

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Offline Ponchopizza

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2021, 10:41:52 AM »
it's hard to make a dough that puffs up a lot AND gets crispy, unless you bake it for an extended time.

Nooooooooo!!! Say it ain't so... Say it ain't so... I will keep trying anyway :)
Aaron

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2021, 10:41:30 PM »
Nooooooooo!!! Say it ain't so... Say it ain't so... I will keep trying anyway :)

Haha. Well, it's definitely possible - you can either bake the pizza a bit longer on lower heat, or you can bake fast, let it cool down on a rack, and reheat.
Alex

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Offline Ponchopizza

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2021, 11:18:20 AM »
Haha. Well, it's definitely possible - you can either bake the pizza a bit longer on lower heat, or you can bake fast, let it cool down on a rack, and reheat.

I've tried the longer cook at lower heat and didn't love the results. It lost its ethereal texture and was way too chewy after it cooled a bit. I already do a quick rest on the burner grates of my range, so I'll give the 'recook' technique a shot.
Aaron

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2021, 08:30:55 PM »
Hope you don’t mind a post, but your Japanese Neapolitan has interested me and caused me to do some reading and searching but not yet trying. Apparently at my age I wouldn’t make it to the initiation!
Here is an article I enjoyed and hope is new to you and that you, too, enjoy the read


https://www.eater.com/2017/2/21/14670944/best-pizza-tokyo-guide
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2021, 10:07:32 PM »
Thanks for the article!
Alex

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2021, 03:17:04 AM »

I find the low content of salt in the dough a bit strange for a Neapolitan style dough and the fermentation is 24 hours instead of the 48 that Susumu recommended to me, so I'm not sure if this is the legit recipe he uses. Still this is a nice step forward.
What you have to remember with Neapolitan dough formulation (according to AVPN standards) is that all the ingredients are calculated against the weight of the water, not the flour. So 3.5 g of salt in this recipe comes out about 2.1% of the total weight of the water, which is about right on the money. Plus it's a coarse ground salt, which means that if a lot of it was used, it's flavor in the dough would be too strong. Also, with such a high hydration rate and a longer than average kneading regimen, a higher salt content would probably work against the desired poofy outer crust too much, even if it doesn't have as much of it as usual.
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Offline HansB

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2021, 08:08:19 AM »
VPN says that salt should be 1.7 - 2% of the total dough weight. That's around 5 - 5.5% of the water weight.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 08:12:45 AM by HansB »
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2021, 01:21:32 PM »
VPN says that salt should be 1.7 - 2% of the total dough weight. That's around 5 - 5.5% of the water weight.
I'm not sure where you're getting that information, but according to the specifications I'm seeing on their page, that doesn't really add up. Here's a copy and paste of the specs they list on their site:
"The ingredients
Now let's move on and analyze the ingredients to prepare the True neapolian pizza's dough.
The following doses are based on 1 litre (1000ml) of water;:
- Water: 1 litre (1000 ml)
- Salt: 40-60 grams
- Yeast (based on temperature and humidity):
Fresh beer yeast 0.1-3 grams
Mother Yeast 5-20% of flour used
Dry yeast 1/3 of fresh yeast used (1 gram of dry for 3 grams of fresh)
- Flour: 1,600/1,800 (depending on the degree of absorption)."
Web address: https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana
So if we calculate the salt percentage by dough weight, starting with the least salt with the highest hydration, that would be 40 g/2,840g (40g salt+1kg water+1.8kg flour), which comes out to 1.4%, which is exactly where the recipe in question here stands. 
If we calculate the salt percentage by dough weight with the most salt and the lowest hydration, that would be 60g/2,660 (60g salt+1kg water+1.6kg flour), which comes out to 2.26% by dough weight.
Note: I've purposely left out the weight of yeast here because I think it's more or less negligible.
The specs for the salt alone equates to 4%-6% by weight of water, according to their website.
Your math and mine are not agreeing, but I will allow for the possibility that you've gotten your stats from some other source that I'm not familiar with.
Having said all that, it does appear that I might be contradicting my own previous statement about the calculated weight of salt against the water, but the recipe also proves out a salt content content by dough weight of only 0.844% (3.5 g salt/250 flour+160g water+ 3.5 g salt+ 1 g yeast), which I must say obviously can't be correct.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 01:33:14 PM by RHawthorne »
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2021, 03:48:30 PM »
RHawthorne, my phone call to Seirinkan revealed that Susumu actually uses 40g salt per liter of water, which corresponds to the lowest salt level on the VPN recipe. Assuming the same hydration level of 64% in his web recipe, that would be 40g salt per 1000g water which at 64% hydration equals 1000/0.64 = 1562.5g flour. This means it is 40/1562.5 = 2.56% salt. A very normal amount for a Neapolitan dough that typically contains around 2.5-3% salt relative to the flour.
Alex

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Offline Wario

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2021, 03:52:29 PM »
Gotta get me one of those incubators too! Imagine if the dough-balls hatch and little Italian pizzaiolo's came out.  >:D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 03:55:32 PM by Wario »

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2021, 09:21:31 PM »
RHawthorne, my phone call to Seirinkan revealed that Susumu actually uses 40g salt per liter of water, which corresponds to the lowest salt level on the VPN recipe. Assuming the same hydration level of 64% in his web recipe, that would be 40g salt per 1000g water which at 64% hydration equals 1000/0.64 = 1562.5g flour. This means it is 40/1562.5 = 2.56% salt. A very normal amount for a Neapolitan dough that typically contains around 2.5-3% salt relative to the flour.
I don't know what more to say. I'm not doubting that the information you're getting from the restaurant is correct. I'm just going by the recipe you showed. 250g of flour+ 160g water+ 3.5g rock salt+ 1g of yeast= 414.5g, so the salt content by weight of the dough would be 0.844%, no question about it. Or if measured against the weight of the flour, that's 1.4%. Or measured against the weight of the water, it comes out to 2.2%. I'm pretty confident my math is correct here. Maybe you gave an incorrect quantity for the salt in the recipe you posted? If my math is wrong, I'd like to see how.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 09:29:41 PM by RHawthorne »
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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2021, 04:54:42 AM »
FWIW, Italians normally count salt in grams per liter of water, a normal amount is 40-50g, and they might go up to 55-60g when it's very warm.  Most of the rest of the world seems to use baker's percentages counting the salt content in relation to the flour weight.  Why complicate things by counting the salt content on the entire dough weight?
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2021, 01:59:38 PM »
I agree - there doesn't seem to be a need to calculate salt by % of dough - it's not common either in the US or Italy.

Rhawthorne, I appreciate your effort to make the calculations but the original recipe I posted was just a first step - I trust my direct communication with the restaurant over a recipe printed on the web somewhere else. So the correct salt amount for his recipe is 40g/liter water or 2.56% by weight of flour.
Alex

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Japanese style Neapolitan dough?
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2021, 02:50:00 PM »
I agree - there doesn't seem to be a need to calculate salt by % of dough - it's not common either in the US or Italy.

Rhawthorne, I appreciate your effort to make the calculations but the original recipe I posted was just a first step - I trust my direct communication with the restaurant over a recipe printed on the web somewhere else. So the correct salt amount for his recipe is 40g/liter water or 2.56% by weight of flour.
Okay. I just wasn't clear on whether or not you were saying that the posted recipe was correct.
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