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Author Topic: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat  (Read 1544 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2021, 02:58:40 AM »
Yael that's really interesting. 70+h at room temp in bulk seems like quite a long time. I wonder how it tastes.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2021, 04:22:51 AM »
Yael that's really interesting. 70+h at room temp in bulk seems like quite a long time. I wonder how it tastes.

Yes me too! I'm trying soon.
BTW, he replied for the yeast amount, that's 0.0114% CY... I'm gonna try with 1g or 0.10g IDY diluted in 100g water (hopefully I won't make mistake, my maths are a little bit rusty).
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2021, 10:21:30 AM »
Peter,
That's once again very interesting. I've been reading a lot about sourdough and bacteria recently, do you think it could also be possible that lactobacillus and yeast naturally present in the flour also activate like when starting a sourdough? I know that white/refined flours don't have a lot of them as they are mostly in bran (or in organic flours), and I never made the experiment, but that would seem possible.
Yael,

After I had made pizza with so little yeast, one of our members, widespreadpizza (Marc), who lives in New Hampshire, asked if there might have been enough naturally occurring yeast in the dough to raise it. You can see Marc's post where he raised this issue, and my reply that followed it, at Replies 62 and 63 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78700#msg78700

On the assumption that maybe wild yeast was at work, we both then made doughs that had no yeast added, in any form.

You can see Marc's finished pizza at Reply 82 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78756.html#msg78756 

Maybe your thesis has merit but in my case I did not detect any sourness in the finished crusts. If there had been even a mild sourness, I would have mentioned that. Marc commented that his guests liked his pizza (and better than other pizzas he made) but he did not mention sourness as a component of the crust flavor. Also, in retrospect, I wonder if the salt may also have inhibited yeast performance.

To the above, I would add that I made a dough ball using stale Caputo flour as a further "no yeast" experiment. However, while I made a skin out of the dough ball, I did not make a pizza out of it. You can see the details for that experiment at Reply 96 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78952;topicseen#msg78952

Maybe Marc and I made salted natural preferments in amounts large enough to make pizzas out of them, but without going through the usual multi-day procedure of multiple feedings  :-D. Also, as an afterthought, I went to one of Didier Rosada's articles to see how he described a biga in terms of its hydration and prefermentation temperature. This is part of what he wrote:

Biga originally was a very stiff pre-ferment used by Italian bakers to reinforce the strength of the dough. A traditional biga is prepared using flour, water, and yeast.  The hydration is around 50-55% (very stiff).  Unlike the poolish and the sponge process, the quantity of yeast, the fermentation temperature, and the fermentation time are constant.  Usually, .8 to 1% of fresh commercial yeast is used.  The biga is then held at around 60°F for about 18 hours.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm

You will note that I used a hydration of 57%. Marc used 62%. For the most part, we both used high room temperatures for fermentation purposes in order to make the doughs usable in about 20-24 hours. Marc felt better than 99% certain that it was the wild yeast in the flour that was responsible for the results we achieved. However, I am not sure that we can rule out bacterial fermentation.

Peter


Offline DoouBall

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2021, 09:27:15 PM »
Yes me too! I'm trying soon.
BTW, he replied for the yeast amount, that's 0.0114% CY... I'm gonna try with 1g or 0.10g IDY diluted in 100g water (hopefully I won't make mistake, my maths are a little bit rusty).

Haha, don't fudge up the yeast measurement :)
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2021, 06:43:09 AM »
Haha, don't fudge up the yeast measurement :)

Too late  :-D :-D

Here is my post: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67433.msg656369#msg656369
Measuring yeast is too much of a struggle  :-X :(

Peter,
Thank you for your reply, indeed I didn't find any acidic smell after 24H RTF. Maybe after a longer time? We'll see.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2021, 11:34:22 AM »
Yael, I know you're just doing this for fun since you're an awesome pizza maker and already have tried and true recipes, and a cool YouTube site as well.

For me, I also love tinkering around with new recipes and in fact, I have a hard time stopping myself. It's just too much fun.

However at the end of the day, I think what matters most isn't making the most delicious pizza one time, but being able to produce an excellent product, time and time again. The ability to standardize your process and be able to consistently generate an excellent result, at least 95% of the time, and a good result the other 5%, that is what I think matters most, especially for professionals. But even home cooks don't want to invite friends over for pizza and flop, am I right? 

This is why I love two methods in particular - a direct dough with a 24 hour fridge bulk and either 4-6 hours ball at room temp with about 0.2-0.3% fresh yeast OR a 20-50% biga based dough with any number of management options. The biga dough in particular is extremely forgiving as long as you make the biga correctly because biga has so much yeast in it, there is very little chance your dough won't rise. Biga also makes your dough quite strong, so even if your dough balls rise 2.5x, you can still make an awesome pizza. Just my 2c.

The very little yeast methods produce an excellent result as well, but I find them less predictable and more stressful ultimately. They typically require a lot of regular dough check-ins and playing around with moving dough to different temperatures to ensure fermentation coincides with your pizza party time.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2021, 12:59:44 PM »
This is the main reason that I often go for a 9-12 hour RT ferment, apart from it being very nice to just decide in the morning that tonight I'm making pizza.  Still the long RT ferment has a small edge in taste, just don't know if it's always worth the trouble.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2021, 09:34:46 PM »
This is the main reason that I often go for a 9-12 hour RT ferment, apart from it being very nice to just decide in the morning that tonight I'm making pizza.  Still the long RT ferment has a small edge in taste, just don't know if it's always worth the trouble.

Then you might really enjoy watching the Ciro Salvo segment on the free masterclass from AVPN that was just aired on Facebook. Starts about 3:10:00 in this video. It's for a 3-4h bulk and 7-8h balls all at room temp:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2892736234379642&ref=watch_permalink
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2021, 05:36:09 AM »
Yeah, I started watching, but don't know if i'm gonna skip around, or watch all the 24 hours (will probably take me a few weeks).  Thanks for the link and time.

I also like a relatively short bulk and more time in balls.  I don't really enjoy making balls from already gassy dough.  But in the long run so many different ways to do things, and so much to learn and discover.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Dough bulk fermentation looking flat
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2021, 02:03:36 AM »
Yeah, I started watching, but don't know if i'm gonna skip around, or watch all the 24 hours (will probably take me a few weeks).  Thanks for the link and time.

I also like a relatively short bulk and more time in balls.  I don't really enjoy making balls from already gassy dough.  But in the long run so many different ways to do things, and so much to learn and discover.

From a pizza lesson I took online, I learned that for Neapolitan pizza, you don't want more than 20-30% growth during the bulk phase because it builds too much strength in the dough, making the drafting of the disks harder. I've always had good results with those numbers - definitely easier to ball before it blows up too, just like you said.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

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