Clarification -Kneading by hand

[LaGaby]

Hi everyone,

So I made some pizza yesterday after a long ferment in the fridge (24hrs @ 5'c) and it was flat and wet.
I do 70% using a caputo nuvolo and pizzeria mix 50/50.

I will usually autolyse for 30 mins, add yeast, mix, add salt, mix and rest for a further 30mins. Do a little kneading (10mins slap and folds)
then i bulk for 1hr at RT, ball and fridge.
Should i be doing way for kneading and/or stretch and folds?
I have a dough on at the moment which i have calculated 3hrs at RT before going into the fridge so i can perform more stretch and folds, i am just a bit worried that i am over working the dough.

Can someone please clarify the process for making pizza dough by hand, with timings between stretch n folds, bulk before balling and into the fridge?

Any help would be great thanks

[Smaans]

I also knead by hand at 65%
Knead about 10-15min.
Then perform 3 S&F after each 30min.
Then i bulk rise 12h, make balls and let them rest 12h. All at RT.

If you knead by hand you almost Can't overwork your dough. If you feel like it needs more S&F then just do it until the dough feels good to you

[scott r]

How much kneading and stretch and folds you have to do is a very complicated question, and a big part of why some pizza is so much better than other pizza.  This is something that often takes years of experience to master requiring many batches to learn.  It separates the men from the boys if you will.

If a flour is a little dry or wet, it will effect how much you need to knead or S&F.   How hydrated your recipe is will majorly effect it, with dryer doughs needing very little kneading, and wet doughs able to handle (and getting better) with almost unlimited amounts of kneading.  Flour protein amount and protein quality also very much effects this.   Oil or not- effects it.   Room temp or fridge- effects it.   

The best advice I can give you is to make some batches with a consistent recipe/flour giving more and more kneading and then bake them all and see which you prefer.  But be prepared when a small variable changes, sometimes even uncontrollable by you, that the kneading amount might change.

[Icelandr]

As above comments, but while it is fresh in my mind and I have the notes in my pizza Diary, here was last nights dough, hand built the night before. This is not a “how to”, just my experience for the last few months.


Dough for 4 balls @ 240 grams was 66% hydration, 2.8% salt, 5.15% SD, touch too much. Flour and salt were weighed and combined, (Costco) water weighed, SD weighed then added to water and agitated well. I added flour to water because I seem to find it is an easier mix.
From the first flour added to a rest on the counter was about 12 minutes. I let it rest 12 minutes and did a few stretch and folds (4-6?) another 12 minute rest and another set of S&F, another rest, S&F and a rest while I ate dinner, then to bulk for 11 hours at 21°C, ball for 10 hours (too much SD!). The dough to me was at the point of pasta, very slightly sticky to a firm touch but lively.
The dough opened well, easily stretched with gentle slapping and I was pleased with its qualities.
I find hand kneading to be fun and satisfying, but recall I am only making small batches.


I cannot see any of the above being a revelation to you, it is just meant as a this works for me, if you can gain anything from it great.


Greg

[Yael]

In addition to what has been said above, I'd suggest to start with a lower hydration. I never tried this flour yet but 70% may still be on the high side, I would start at 65%.

Also, the simplest dough management I would do is like this: after hand kneading and 2 to 4 stretch & fold series, bulk CF. The next day I'd take the dough out and ball 4 to 8H before baking (depending on my RT and yeast amount).

[LaGaby]

Thanks for your replies guys!

So i completed the stretch and folds yesterday, I did 2hrs worth (every 30 mins) then bulk for 1hr, balled and in the fridge (i prefer to ball before retarding).
It is currently chilling in the fridge until tomorrow evening.
I will see how this one turns out and post an update.

Can i ask, what would be the process with a spiral mixer if i was to keep a similiar process i.e CF for up to 48hrs? i am hoping to pick one these up soon

[Yael]

High hydration doughs are easier to knead with a spiral mixer. Start with adding 60 to 65% of the water like a classic dough (5 min low speed) then add the remaining water little by little at 2nd speed during... 10 to 15 min depending on your remaining water and dough temperature.