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Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 553163 times)

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Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1320 on: October 20, 2017, 08:33:46 PM »
  I have in the past dressed my skins directly on a wooden peel. Never had too many launch problems. These days I always use parchment paper on the peel and dress my pies on it. I figure I went to all the trouble to make a pie, I really don't want to be on the thread of shame more than I have to. When first placing the skin on parchment paper it does have a tendency to stick a little. I slide the pie on top of the parchment paper on to the stone. After between two and three minutes I remove the parchment paper from under the pie in a quick pulling motion, like the magic trick of tableware staying put when yanking the tablecloth. No mater the hydration of the skin and after several hundred pies and years I have yet to experience the paper wanting to stick to the skin. I have even let the skin sit on the parchment paper for up to a half hour before baking with no problems. Maybe you are trying to pull the parchment before the skin has had time to set up. I have seen instructions that you should oil the parchment paper before placing the skin on it. Makes no sense to me. I like the idea of parchment paper, no burnt flour or semolina to clean up after the bake, and I can't tell much difference if I started the bake sans the parchment paper.

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1321 on: October 20, 2017, 08:58:21 PM »
I'm working through a 1000-count box of the cheap (non-silicone) pan liners, and dust with semolina for lean doughs; silicone-treated parchment releases more reliably and probably doesn't need the help.
In grams we trust.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1322 on: October 20, 2017, 09:16:20 PM »
Because the PJ clone doughs do not have a high hydration value, I have never seen the need to use parchment paper for those doughs. Also, I used pizza screens. But for those cases where I used high hydration doughs, I found the use of parchment paper to be a good idea. I would say that my practice with parchment paper was similar to what Steve described. But I once tackled the parchment paper method in its various aspects in a single post, at:

Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11844.msg110675#msg110675.

It didn’t bother me personally that some semolina might have ended up under the pizza. I liked the flavor and crunch imparted by the semolina. Remember, also, that the Dustinator blend that PJ uses on the bench contains some semolina.

Peter

Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1323 on: October 21, 2017, 02:42:17 AM »
I was wondering what happens to all the stray toppings at PJ's (and every other similar place) that fall from/around the pizza and through the grate when the pizza is being topped in haste as per usual. If it was just cheese e.g. it could be scooped up and put back in the cheese container, but it's a medley of pretty much every topping available down there that is seemingly rendered unusable as a result. I mean either they're actually sifting through it to reclaim it or they're throwing it out, which sounds crazy both cost-wise and waste-wise.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1324 on: October 21, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »
I was wondering what happens to all the stray toppings at PJ's (and every other similar place) that fall from/around the pizza and through the grate when the pizza is being topped in haste as per usual. If it was just cheese e.g. it could be scooped up and put back in the cheese container, but it's a medley of pretty much every topping available down there that is seemingly rendered unusable as a result. I mean either they're actually sifting through it to reclaim it or they're throwing it out, which sounds crazy both cost-wise and waste-wise.
Christian,

That is a good question. Some time ago, I found what appeared to be a PJ manual for assembling their pizzas, at http://blakemward.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/5/8/21582402/employee_manual0.pdf. The part of the manual that discusses adding the sauce, toppings and cheese starts at page 13. You will note that everything is measured out. So, I think the hope is that if the make-line workers follow what the manual tells them to do there will not be a lot of overflow of cheese and toppings that goes through the grate. However, I would imagine that that rule is often broken when they are being slammed. I have to believe that whatever falls through the grate is discarded. I don't even think they want their employees to find personal uses for the waste. Companies like PJ are very cautious about matters of hygiene and don't dare violate rules of hygiene. I recall a while back reading a Mellow Mushroom manual that someone posted online and their rules and procedures were extremely detailed about what employees could or could not do. They can't risk legal or other problems just to save a few pennies on ingredients.

Peter

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Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1325 on: January 18, 2018, 10:41:07 AM »
This thread hasn't seen any activity in months how odd. 

I'm making a Papa John's clone tonight, the first pizza I've made in months and it's already gone wrong.


I recently bought a stand mixer and it kneads nicely but I didn't take into account dough temp.   I usually use room temp water which is pretty cold here and kneading by hand  warms the dough up a lot. Not sure what temp it usually reaches but I recall about 85f.


Using a stand mixer and room temp water results in a cold dough thats taking a lot longer to rise the friction from kneading in the machine barely changes the temp of the dough at all. I just recorded the dough temp and its  only  73f!

 :'(






Offline the1mu

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1326 on: January 18, 2018, 10:48:16 AM »
This thread hasn't seen any activity in months how odd. 

I'm making a Papa John's clone tonight, the first pizza I've made in months and it's already gone wrong.


I recently bought a stand mixer and it kneads nicely but I didn't take into account dough temp.   I usually use room temp water which is pretty cold here and kneading by hand  warms the dough up a lot. Not sure what temp it usually reaches but I recall about 85f.


Using a stand mixer and room temp water results in a cold dough thats taking a lot longer to rise the friction from kneading in the machine barely changes the temp of the dough at all. I just recorded the dough temp and its  only  73f!

 :'(

What kind of mixer are you rocking?

It really depends on the mixer, in my experience. One thing I've noticed with my home mixer is that it starts out coolish but once it starts to heat up, it gets warm really fast.

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1327 on: January 18, 2018, 10:53:52 AM »
What kind of mixer are you rocking?

It really depends on the mixer, in my experience. One thing I've noticed with my home mixer is that it starts out coolish but once it starts to heat up, it gets warm really fast.


It's a Kenwood Kmix with spiral dough hook


Yeah the motor gets a little warm but it doesn't really effect the actual dough  only the friction should?

 

Offline the1mu

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1328 on: January 18, 2018, 10:56:46 AM »

It's a Kenwood Kmix with spiral dough hook


Yeah the motor gets a little warm but it doesn't really effect the actual dough  only the friction should?

My reference wasn't to the motor. It seems to me that for my dough, once a "threshold" is met in terms of warmth generated by friction, it increases rapidly after. (These numbers are just for example only...) Like if for the first 10 minutes of mixing, I see a 10° increase (F) in termperature, then all of the sudden, in the next 2 minutes I would see a 5° increase (and they are drastically exaggerated to hopefully illustrate what I meant).

Offline Ric Clint

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1329 on: February 09, 2018, 04:48:55 AM »
I hesitated to post this on this thread, but...

I'm still somewhat new to this, but I was looking through Youtube and seen this video:


Are these Papa John's clones anything close to similar to what Tom's recipe is in this video, or are they a completely different animal?

Is this the recipe in the video just a generic "starter-type" dough recipe designed just for newbies to play around with just to get a feel for the dough making process... or can this recipe be used in successful pizzerias? I'm sure it's probably not the exact same recipe as some of the major chains, but is this recipe one that can hold it's own against chains like Pizza Hut, Domino's, Mellow Mushroom, Papa John's, etc... or should there be modifications to it in someway?

Just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks!



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Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1330 on: February 09, 2018, 07:03:51 AM »


I hesitated to post this on this thread, but...

I'm still somewhat new to this, but I was looking through Youtube and seen this video:


Are these Papa John's clones anything close to similar to what Tom's recipe is in this video, or are they a completely different animal?

Is this the recipe in the video just a generic "starter-type" dough recipe designed just for newbies to play around with just to get a feel for the dough making process... or can this recipe be used in successful pizzerias? I'm sure it's probably not the exact same recipe as some of the major chains, but is this recipe one that can hold it's own against chains like Pizza Hut, Domino's, Mellow Mushroom, Papa John's, etc... or should there be modifications to it in someway?

Just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks!



.

Tom's dough recipe and similar can be and is used in many pizzerias as it's a solid standard dough. Some NY style pizzerias (referred to as "elite") don't even use sugar or oil, but just flour, water, yeast and salt, so there's nothing inferior about his recipe; it's simply a good dough for anyone to use as is or tweak to their own.

There's a couple of significant differences between Tom's recipe and this PJ clone. Where Tom's uses 2% oil and 2% sugar, this PJ clone uses 7% or more oil and over 4% sugar. At the very least more sugar means the dough will brown quicker (if not a lot quicker) than Tom's dough (AOTBE) and 7% oil means the finished crust would be softer and it'd ferment faster, too, w/ the same amount of yeast. Tom's dough w/ it's 2% oil will have a chewier finished crust typical of an NY crust, whereas the PJ crust is your typical American soft crust.
Either dough can be every bit as good or better than the chains provided that the other variables are present; proper mixing and dough management, baking time/temp etc.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1331 on: February 09, 2018, 08:36:34 PM »
Ric Clint,

Christian (csnack) gave you a correct analysis. There is no reason why Tom's recipe cannot be used to make an "American" style pizza although most chains, like Papa John's and Domino's, tend to use a fair amount of sugar and oil (Mellow Mushroom uses a form of molasses) than called for by Tom's recipe. Also, I suspect that Tom uses a smaller thickness factor (dough loading) than the chains that make an American style of pizza.

I should also add that I modified the original PJ clone dough formulation when I found additional information on the PJ dough. The most significant change was to use more sugar than oil. You can see an example for a two-day cold fermented PJ clone dough at Reply 585 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667. The same or similar baker's percents could be used to make PJ clones with different fermentation periods, with the major change being the amount of yeast. But in all cases, the thickness factor would be around 0.13 whereas most NY style doughs tend to have a thickness factor ranging from around 0.085-0.10.

If your are interested in a dough that is essentially a cross or hybrid of the NY and American styles, you might check out the formulation I posted at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.msg15953#msg15953

I mention this formulation because at the time I experimented with it, I was not aware of any pizza chain or pizzeria that was using it and I thought that it would make a good pizzeria pizza.

Good luck with whatever formulation you decide to use or test out.

Peter

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1332 on: February 19, 2018, 09:46:23 AM »
Pete-zzza  I'm still doing the quick 5 hour room fermentation but no matter what I do the dough ball  spreads out like crazy.    I'm using 56.5% water 7.3% oil so I don't think it can be too much liquid.    Not much choices for flour here but I've used two different imported Canadian flours they sell in British supermarkets, both in the high 14's  protein.  I've used a combination of that, with weaker flour to get to 13.5% protein. I've used 12% bread flour with VWG to get higher.  I always find my dough stretches too easily I


I also find the the dough stretches too easily pick it up put it over my knuckles and it'll practically drop to the floor.

I've had this problem since day one.


Apart from this the only other recipe I used was your 2 day cold fermentation that didn't rise enough  (my fridge must be too cold)  and despite a few hour at room temp the dough was too cold and hard to stretch. Complete opposite of the room temp fermentation.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1333 on: February 19, 2018, 10:06:27 AM »
MadMatt,

Have you been measuring the finished dough temperature and, if so, what have you been getting? And, to refresh my recollection, which recipe have you been using that has created the problem you are experiencing and how long have you been fermenting the dough?

Peter



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1334 on: February 19, 2018, 11:20:27 AM »
MadMatt,

Have you been measuring the finished dough temperature and, if so, what have you been getting? And, to refresh my recollection, which recipe have you been using that has created the problem you are experiencing and how long have you been fermenting the dough?

Peter


I think it was this but I reduced sugar to 4%

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58509#msg58509



Problem is I'm making pizza's like once every 3-4 weeks I should be making them once a week if I want to improve.  I went without making anything for several months before Christmas.


As I mentioned a post or two ago I had a problem with my dough not rising like it was before. This was because I have a stand mixer now, instead of  using room temp water (cold in my house) and kneading by hand which warms the dough up a lot  the dough temp was a lot colder causing it not to rise the same.  So right now I'm using warmer water around 100f to the stand mixer. After kneading from memory the dough ends up quite a bit colder around  86f.  The room temp  is only 68f and I've been using the bakers yeast prediction model as a rough guide on how much yeast to use. I've found around 0.28% idy does a good rise in 5 hours at 86f but it really depends on the dough temp after its been kneaded.







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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1335 on: February 20, 2018, 09:01:23 AM »
MaddMatt,

From the two examples you gave, it would seem that temperatures are behind the poor results you have achieved. And, of those temperatures, it would appear that finished dough temperature may be the most critical one. My advice is to go back to the two day cold fermented dough recipe and see if you can use water at a temperature that will give you a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. If you can do that, you should then put the dough balls in containers, without lids, into the refrigerator and let them cool down for about a couple of hours. You can then put the lids on the containers. To prevent the dough balls from drying out on the exposed surfaces, you can lightly oil the dough balls before placing them into the containers.

It will also help to make notes of the exact recipe you decide to use, along with all of the baker's percents, in case you experience further problems. You should also make note of the temperatures and times that apply to your case.

Peter

Offline goodpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1336 on: February 23, 2018, 05:57:06 PM »
Hey this is my first attempt at this style pizza. I wanted to try a 4hr method so I could see if the papa johns clone was the correct style that I am going for in a different project which I will detail in another post.

My goal was to do a 4hr room temperature rise version of the papa johns clone, referencing from the “emergency” formulation and the “same day” formulation found at reply 57 and 24 at the link here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66655.html#msg66655
And here
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357


To figure out how much IDY to add I used Craig’s yeast % charts found at reply 202 here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
 
 With my room temperature (72F) and my desired rise time (4hr), this chart lead to me deciding to use a yeast % of 0.256%.

Using the expanded dough calculator (accidentally used a 0% bowl residue factor) I got the following formulation:
 
Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.256%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.256%):
373.3 g  |  13.17 oz | 0.82 lbs
216.51 g  |  7.64 oz | 0.48 lbs
0.96 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.6 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.25 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.06 tsp | 2.02 tbsp
15.68 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
639.29 g | 22.55 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = 0.146487

Additionally specific differences in the formulation were using a “light” olive oil instead of soybean oil (all I had on hand), using table salt instead of kosher (not actually sure that this has been specified by Pete), not sifting the KABF before using, and not using VWG.
   
To mix the ingredients I followed a similar procedure to the formulations mentioned above. I added to the full amount of measured water (at ~room temp) the salt and sugar and stirred to dissolve. I then added the IDY and stirred to dissolve. I then added the oil and stirred. I then added about half the flour slowly at first, but I became impatient as it was incorporating because I was doing this by hand so I added the the rest of it in larger chunks. All mixing and stirring was done with a dough whisk. A scant amount of the flour in the recipe was still in the bowl and not yet in the dough, however with the relatively low hydration % and difficulty of mixing by hand I figured I could incorporate it as I was hand kneading the rest. I dumped the contents on the counter and with no bench flour started to knead the dough by hand. I kneaded for about 7 minutes, and half way through I started to use some flour on my hands as it was sticking more than I liked. Probably used 10 grams of flour for that.

I then lightly oiled a Pyrex and placed the dough ball in that to rise.

I used a digital instant read thermometer to take the finished dough temperature by poking it in the top after I put it in the Pyrex. In hindsight, maybe I should have done this in the bottom of the ball. The temperature read to be 76.6F.

I forgot to write down the finished dough mass, but it was over the expected mass from Pete’s posts, probably because my dough bowl residue factor was overly conservative.

I attempted to use the 1in poppy seed method to measure the rise rate using corn kernels. However I had difficulty placing them correctly so I didn't use them to measure the rise.

I then covered the Pyrex with plastic wrap and left it in my counter to rise next to a thermometer so I could keep track of the ambient air temperature.

After 4hrs I didn’t really see the amount of rise I would expect from the dough. It seemed "spread out", but not "risen".

Anyways, I then dropped the dough out onto a floured (only used KABF, no semolina mix as Pete used) baking sheet (I don’t have a pizza screen, and couldn't find my round pizza pan with holes) and stretched it out to an approximate 12x14in oval. I think I stretched it too much in the middle at the start of the process and rather should have started by stretching the dough by the rim first as the finished product seemed inconsistently “thick” near to the rim. (although this could be attributed to the fact that my dough ball was larger than what it should be for the size I was going for.)

For toppings I added slightly over 5oz of sauce and 8oz of cheese. This was based off of Pete's post linked above that called for 5oz of sauce and 9oz of cheese. (5oz of sauce seemed too little so I added a bit more and I felt there was a sufficient amount of cheese after adding 8oz so I stopped)

I baked it on the lowest rack of a 500F oven as also directed in the linked posts, but baked it for longer at 9min on the low rack because I felt the top wasn’t done enough after 7mins, and moved it up to the middle rack for the last minute as desperation. (Which actually did work in browning the top a bit more)

Eating and looking at it, I feel that the bottom is certainly overdone relative to the top.

Images here:
https://imgur.com/a/DZwlF

Does anyone have any tips on how to improve this?

Perhaps pizza screen will help? Or baking on middle or top rack?

How about using a pizza stone?

The dough kind of spread out when rising. Perhaps a 2qt Pyrex is too large?

Dough didn’t rise enough. Ideas on why:

-The counter was colder than room temperature (probably between 60F-70F) and since the bowl was directly in contact with that, even through the air temperature was 72F the dough temperature could have gotten below it. Craig’s charts show that at 60F it would take 9hrs to rise with the same % yeast I used.
-I store my yeast in the fridge, and only take it out just before measuring and adding. Perhaps it needs to be warmed up more? But I would imagine the water would do just fine at this.
-Yeast that I am using does not have the same reactivity level as the yeast from Craig’s charts. I am using the SAF red.
-Salt and sugar factors inhibit the yeast more than expected from Craig’s charts.

If I try to develop my own model from Pete’s experiments I would see that Pete was able to get a 5.5hr rise using 0.1% yeast at 79F and a 12hr rise using 0.02% yeast at 81F. Assuming a linear model (which is a bad assumption), I would be able to get a 3hr rise using 0.5% yeast when temps are around 80F. I will try this in addition to letting it rise on a wood table and see if that works.


However I do wish to ask, what does the rising actually do to the finished product and why is it that “doubling” it when rising is a good stopping point?

« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 09:09:47 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1337 on: February 24, 2018, 10:38:11 AM »
goodpizza,

All things considered, I think you did a pretty good job for a first try at a PJ clone pizza. Room temperature fermented doughs can be tough to make because it is hard to control all of the temperatures, including the flour and water temperatures, the finished dough temperature and the room temperature. That is the main reason why I used the poppy seed trick for most of my PJ clone doughs. I suspect one of the reasons why you did not discern a perceptible "rise" in the dough, is because it rose more laterally than upwardly because you used a 2-qt Pyrex bowl whereas I used a 1-qt Pyrex bowl. Dough will go in the direction of least resistance. I often use the terms "rise" or "risen" to apply to the process of fermentation even if the dough does not appear to have "risen" to the naked eye. I should also add that a doubling of the dough is not an absolute requirement. However, it is a safe degree of expansion for most people, and especially newbies, and lends itself nicely to the use of the poppy seed trick. Also, with respect to the yeast (IDY), I sometimes see recipes that say to warm up the yeast before using. My practice is to take the yeast out of the refrigerator or freezer at the outset so that it is ready to use when I am ready to make the doughs. With respect to the salt, I used regular salt unless I indicated otherwise. I also used vegetable (soybean) oil, mainly because that is what PJ used but also because it is mild flavored, whereas olive oil tends to have a more robust flavor, especially when used in large amounts.

Also, by way of background, in many of my experiments I sifted the flour and, in some cases, I also added vital wheat gluten (VWG). The sifting is to improve the absorption characteristics of the base flour. The purpose of using the VWG was to try to increase the protein content of the base flour to that which I believed PJ was using at the time. I also typically adjusted the hydration value to account for the fact that VWG is harder to hydrate than the base flour.

Even though you made several changes to the recipe you decided to use as a starting point, I do not think that the changes would have been material at the ingredients level. Also, I do not think that the mixing method you used would have been a problem. However, the temperatures would have been material. That is where the poppy seed trick would have come in handy if properly used.

With respect to the oversized rim, you may want to reduce the amount of dough for the size of your pizza. I mention this since I learned later in this thread after several PJ clones that PJ was using about 20 ounces of dough for its 14" pizza. That translates to a thickness factor of around 0.13. I also made some other changes, as noted, for example, for the 2-day version of a PJ clone at Reply 585 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667.

As for the bake protocol, I have always used pizza screens for the PJ clone pizzas. That is because that is what PJ does in many of its stores although some of the stores have gone to perforated discs over time. Also, in my case, the use of screens lent itself well to my standard electric home oven. In my case, I started the pizza at the lowest oven rack position and when the bottom crust was adequately browned, I would move the pizza to a higher oven rack position to achieve the desired degree of top crust browning and melting of the cheese. There have been some members who have successfully used pizza stones but one has to monitor the bottom bake very carefully to be sure that the bottom crust does not brown too fast or even burn, which is possible because of the high sugar levels in the PJ doughs and the way that they caramelize during the bake. These problems are largely avoided using conveyor ovens such as PJ uses in its stores. What all of this means is that you have to experiment with your oven to find the best way to bake the pizzas.

With respect to your last question about what happens when the dough rises, there are several things that happen. These include the conversion of damaged starch in the flour to simple sugars that the yeast can use as food as well as contribute to final crust coloration (residual sugars). Gases are also produced to cause the dough to rise and contribute to the degree of rise in the baked crust. Finally, there are many other byproducts of fermentation that contribute to the flavors of the finished crust. However, these will be less noticeable with emergency doughs than doughs that are fermented much longer, whether at room temperature or in the refrigerator. When oil and sugars (including honey) are used, and especially in large amounts, as is the case with the PJ doughs, the finished crust will be more tender, and possibly with more flavor, including sweetness.

If I did not address all of your questions, please let me know. But, overall, I think that you did pretty well.

Peter

Offline goodpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1338 on: February 28, 2018, 09:00:51 PM »
Thanks for your comments Peter.

On my second attempt, I did use the poppy seed trick correctly (using sesame seeds) for gauging the rise. 0.5% IDY got me a perfect 4hr rise doubling the dough at a room temp between 70-68F.

On the cooking side, this time I was able to use the correct style pan, but after 9min at 500F on the middle rack I had an undercooked bottom. Clearly more experimentation is needed with my oven.

My next question is how much yeast % should I use for a different rising profile.
I’m going on a trip to the mountains with “some” friends and was somehow roped into making pizza for dinner for everyone on the 2nd night of our trip. I’m thinking of making at least 7-10 papa johns clones to do this. My thought is that I can make the dough in the morning, let it rise in the car as I drive up to elevation (approx 4hrs including buffer for driving), and then put it in the fridge when I get there. I'm thinking the total rise time will be 32hrs.

Some questions/things I want more information on are:
Will the altitude matter? I have read that yeast needs to be decreased and rising times are shorter, and that you could punch down the dough and let it rise again if it rises too fast. But if I'm using refrigeration does it really matter or work that way? Or maybe I would need to punch it down before I put it in the fridge? Also I have read the water absorption in flour is different at altitude. Would this matter if I prepared my dough at sea level then drove it up to altitude?

Does the starting dough temp really matter? I can't imagine it takes that long for the dough to cool/heat to the ambient temperature.

I have read that there are bulk effects when doing large batches of dough. What are these effects? Am I at the scale where this could happen? If not, at how much dough would this happen?

I'm thinking of timing/manipulating the rise (to deal with uncertain ambient temps) by using the poppy seed trick to get a predetermined amount of rise out of the dough at room temperature by measuring the separation of the seeds (for example get to 50% rise) before putting it into the fridge (where the temperature is more likely to be constant, certain, and manipulable) for the rest of the time, moving it between shelves to get what I want.

Any tips or advice?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 08:23:41 AM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1339 on: March 01, 2018, 03:57:28 PM »
goodpizza,

I will start my response by addressing why I think you did not get adequate bottom crust browning. When I mentioned that PJ has gone to perforated disks in some of its stores, the type of disk that they have gone to is shown at https://www.amnow.com/product-category/superperf-disks/. I have such a disk, and although I have not tried using it (that I can recall) for a PJ clone pizza, I have not had generally good results with such a disk in my standard home electric oven. I think you really should consider buying a pizza screen. And I would start by putting the pizza screen on the lowest oven rack position in your oven and later move the pizza to a higher oven rack position once the bottom crust is of the desired color and you feel you need more top crust browning or better melting of the cheese. One of the problems with the perforated disk that you showed in the photo, especially with the very small holes that do not even go out to the edge, is that before the dressed pizza can start to bake the disk has to get to the proper bake temperature. This can take some time, and with the pan and dressed pizza in the middle oven position and removed too far from the bottom heat source, it can take quite a while for the pizza to properly bake and get the desired degree of bottom crust browning before the top of the pizza has finished baking.

With respect to the elevation issue, you did not indicate how far up the elevation scale you would be driving. But, in general, I have talked about the elevation issue before on the forum on a few occasions, with one such post at Reply 9 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2795.msg24214;topicseen#msg24214.

In your case, if elevation is not really a critical issue, which I suspect it is not given your drive time, I would suggest that you not use bulk fermentation of the dough but rather make the dough balls individually (7-10 dough balls) and put them a cooler with icepacks to keep them cool during fermentation as you make your journey onward and upward. However, you may need to use a different PJ clone dough formulation with the proper amount of yeast rather than an emergency type PJ clone dough formulation. And, in such a case, you may be able to monitor the progress of the dough balls using the poppy (or sesame) seed trick. No one has ever asked me how to do what you would like to do so you may have to monitor the dough balls carefully as they make their journey to the final destination and are then refrigerated. If you scan the first few pages of this thread, you will see that I came up with many different versions of the PJ clone dough, mainly because most members are disinclined to make dough balls that can take 5-8 days of cold fermentation before they can be used. Maybe something like the PJ clone dough formulation as given at Reply 31 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076 but using less yeast. You may also be able to play around with Craig's table at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349 in a two-stage application to zero in more closely to the amount of yeast to use. I have never done that but I believe other members have.

Good luck and keep us advised as to your results. Your thinking process is actually quite good, so hopefully your analytical approach, and maybe your gut instincts, will get you through to a successful result.

Peter

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