Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[Pete-zza]

the food industry is stating that replacement screens are to be the perforated disc style, not the expanded aluminum style that most shops currently use.  i don't know if this is a papa johns corporate thing, or industry-wide, but we can no longer purchase expanded aluminum screens.

secondly, you can clean/sanitize the perforated disc screens.   this is a major health department/fda/NSF/serv-safe trick-pony selling point.

c0mpl3x,

Thank you very much for the update. It helps to have someone on the inside who knows about these sorts of matters. The last time I was at the PJs near me they were still using the screens. However, I have been reading for years that health departments have been increasingly making a push for disks. The folks at pizzatools.com have also been emphasizing that health departments approve of disks, as you will note at http://www.pizzatools.com/Original_Quik-Disk_40/31089/subgrouping.htm. In fact, my recollection is that PizzaTools once said that screens were outlawed by the City of Dallas.

It seems to me that the best disk would be one with a lot of good-sized holes (3/8" seems to be typical), to simulate a pizza screen. That is what Costco uses in at least some of their food courts although the ones I saw were raw aluminum disks that get seasoned over time, as can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/hectoracuna/3046628755/. The same photo shows a conveyor in which the pizzas are baked.

Peter

[TMTM]

the recipe i did wass the first one.. the dough that needs to set in the fridge for about 5 days... sounds like the pan.. screen should be delivered soon

[c0mpl3x]

this is the type.  closely bunched holes.   

[Pete-zza]

One can get a case of astigmatism or go cross-eyed trying to count the number of holes in the disk shown by c0mpl3x, but I get 370 holes. As far as a possible source of such a disk is concerned, American Metalcraft sells what it calls a Superperf Disk-Hardcoat, with 370 holes for a 14" disk. Details can be see at page 3 of the listing at http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Trays/Perforated-Disks/Superperf-Disks. One can easily beat the AM price by doing a Google search, which should turn up many low-cost sources of the disk. See, for example, http://www.etundra.com/14__Hard_Coat_Superperforated_Disk-P30844.html?utm_source=google%2Bproduct&utm_medium=organic. A more detailed view of the disk can be seen by enlarging the photo at the etundra website.

Peter

[ekang]

Hi Pete,

I'm new here and came across your thread.  Great work!

I had a few questions:

1. If you wanted to use the dough straight from the fridge how would the formula change?  Would it be a matter of increasing the yeast %?
2. You mention the dough after mixing to be in a certain temperature range.  How much does this affect the dough?
3. For cold fermentation, at what temperature is optimal?
4. Because of storage constraints, I would need to make batches everyday.  Do you have any suggestions for best results?  Would an overnight fermentation be enough to achieve PJ type results?

Thanks for all of your help.

-ekang

[Pete-zza]

ekang,

Before I respond, can you tell me whether you are operating in a commercial environment or a home environment?

Peter

[neveroffline]

Hi Pete,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

Excited to try this, but don't want to mess it up.  Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Thanks!

[c0mpl3x]

Hi Pete,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

Excited to try this, but don't want to mess it up.  Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Thanks!

i would lessen the water temp to slightly above room temp.  85-90, and stop the dough cycle once the dough is very incorporated into itself and no longer clings/looks 'wet and sticky'.     don't over-work the dough in the bread machine unless you want to bake a loaf of bread.

[c0mpl3x]

pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it

[c0mpl3x]

pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it

kitchen was very warm today, the cat decided she wasn't going to block all the register heat for once!  my adjusted yeast for the temp, made the dough rose about an hour above schedule.   so here's the results.

my camera was stuck in macro mode and i didn't realize it so the aerial pictures are blurry, but for a cellphone, the macro is FANTASTIC.  better than some of the full-blown cameras i see out there

[Pete-zza]

neveroffline,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

I assume that you mean the dough formulation I posted in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. If so, for that dough formulation I used only King Arthur bread flour (KABF), in the amount of 12.50 oz/354.44g. However, a few paragraphs below that dough formulation, I disclosed two different KABF/VWG blends. If you add the amounts of the KABF and VWG in both cases, the total weights should come to about 12.50 oz/354.44g.

Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

I used instant dry yeast (IDY) in the abovementioned dough formulation. It does not require rehydrating ("proofing"). I just add it to the flour or dough at some point (in the above case I added it to the dough). I see no reason why you can't use a bread maker to make the dough although I have never tried using a bread maker for any of my PJ clone doughs. However, when I have used my bread maker (a Zojirushi model) to make other kinds of doughs, I have used cold water and I kneaded the dough for only a short period of time. My bread maker generates a lot of heat by friction so the combination of cold water and short knead time was used to keep the finished dough temperature in the 80 degrees F range so that it didn't ferment too quickly, even when in the refrigerator. Whatever bread maker you use the objective is to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F (I shoot for 75-80 degrees F for a dough that is to be fermented in a standard home refrigerator).

Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Yes, you can substitute brown sugar for white table sugar although I have not tried that myself. And, yes, you should increase the amount of yeast if you want to use the dough within 24 hours.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

c0mpl3x,

No, I have never attempted a PJ thin crust pizza nor have I tried one. I don't know who now makes the par-baked crusts for PJ but some time ago I found a listing of the ingredients for the par-baked crust at a website that has since disappeared. However, I had printed out the ingredients list before the information disappeared. The ingredients listed as of that time were:

Unbleached flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour), water, soybean oil, yeast, salt, natural and artificial flavors (milk), dextrose, calcium propionate (preservative), soy lecithin.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it

c0mpl3x,

Your pizzas look quite good. I think a PJ emergency dough makes a pretty good pizza. It won't be as good as a PJ clone pizza made from a long, cold fermented dough in my opinion, but you don't have to wait several days to eat the pizza. Did you use one of the PJ clone dough formulations in this thread or did you come up with your own? And do you do anything different in making your versions at home as opposed to what you do at work at PJ's?

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

c0mpl3x,

Your pizzas look quite good. I think a PJ emergency dough makes a pretty good pizza. It won't be as good as a PJ clone pizza made from a long, cold fermented dough in my opinion, but you don't have to wait several days to eat the pizza. Did you use one of the PJ clone dough formulations in this thread or did you come up with your own? And do you do anything different in making your versions at home as opposed to what you do at work at PJ's?

Peter

same %tages you cite in the start of this thread.  i don't have a docker, but with same day dough you rarely have the need for one.  cold fermented dough gets lots of bubbles for some reason.    i stretch it in the dustinator from PJ themselves actually.   i don't have a surface adequate enough to let the dough 'float' when i stretch it out, so i pile up a bunch of dustinator in a fullsheet pan to let me contain the mess and crust lock, then flip and stretch it NY style.  i rarely slap dough at home due to the insane amount of flour that gets everywhere.  baked at 550 in my home oven, which is about 500 on a thermometer.  don't know why the oven is off

[ekang]

ekang,

Before I respond, can you tell me whether you are operating in a commercial environment or a home environment?

Peter

Hi Peter,

It would be for a commercial outdoor environment.  We will be using gas conveyor ovens as that is the only option for us at this point.  We are looking at an American style pizza recipe because of the limitations of the oven (500F), am I correct in saying this?  We would like to make a NY style but from what I've read it is tough to do with conveyors.

Operating outside we are limited to space and refrigeration that is why we are looking for room temp fermentation and keeping the dough in bulk batches and portion out on the go as needed.  The desired crust for us is something that is fairly thin, crispy on the outside and chewy on the inside without being too "bready".  I understand American style is more on the soft and chewy side but it seems as though I can add less oil (2.8%) to get a crispier crust, is this true?  Our initial calculation is to use 200g of dough for a 9" pizza.

We are looking for mass production but we don't want to sacrifice quality.  We want to produce a crust with great flavour and it seems as though a natural preferment is the way to go.  I've read about ones using raisins and seems as though it would add a unique flavour to the crust.  However, all the posts I've read use high temp ovens 700F +, can a preferment be used for conveyor ovens and produce a nice browned crispy crust?

Also, is there a limit to how many times one can punch down a dough.  From what I've read once the dough reaches double in volume it should be used or punch down to prevent over-fermentation.  If it is being used throughout the day and kept outside it could potentially double multiple times, can the dough be constantly punched down and still produce the same quality pizza?

I know this is a lot to ask and I appreciate any input you can give.

Kind regards,
ekang

[Pete-zza]

ekang,

It sounds like you are outside of the U.S. and are thinking of an "American" style pizza in a generic sense. In the U.S., an "American" style pizza is a specific style of pizza that is made with a dough that contains a lot of oil and sugar and has a relatively thick crust that can sometimes be on the bready side. The best manifestation of this style is what the chains Papa John's, Domino's and Little Caesars produce. This thread is dedicated solely to the Papa John's style of American pizza.

What I suggest you do is to start a new thread at the General Pizza Making board and set forth what equipment and other facilities you have, as well as the types of flours and other ingredients you have at your disposal, and, in general, what style or type of pizza you want to make, including the characteristics of the crust you are after. That way, you should get a broader range of suggestions from a broader range of members. I think the first objective is to find a basic dough recipe that will work with your oven to produce the style of pizza you want to make. If you'd like, if you decide to start a new topic, you can combine your earlier post at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg123254.html#msg123254 with your last post.

Peter

[bpizza]

Pete-zza, I was looking over your recipe in post #20, but the mixing instructions are for a KitchenAid mixer. Are the instructions applicable to a dlx mixer or would I have to modify them?

thanks

[Pete-zza]

Pete-zza, I was looking over your recipe in post #20, but the mixing instructions are for a KitchenAid mixer. Are the instructions applicable to a dlx mixer or would I have to modify them?

bpizza,

I don't have a DLX mixer and don't recall any other member discussing use of same to make a Papa John's clone dough. However, the PJ clone doughs contain a lot of oil, which I think makes the doughs easier to prepare than other doughs. I see no reason why they shouldn't work in just about any type of mixer, and even by hand kneading. However, each type of mixer has its own peculiarities that make it different from other mixers, so it may take some experimenting with your mixer to get the desired finished dough condition.

Peter

[Biz Markie]

Hey y'all,

I currently have a PJ Clone dough ball in the fridge, on day 4, based on the original formulation at the start of this thread.

I'm getting a little worried that there has been almost no expansion of the dough.  In preparing the dough, I don't think the dough temperature was quite up to the range suggested by Pete-zaa, but it was pretty close

Could it be that the temp didn't get high enough to activate the yeast? 

I guess by bottom-line question is, if I still don't have any rise by the day I am planning to use the dough (about 32 hours from now), what should I do?

Should I pull it out of the fridge several hours before I plan to use it so that it can get a little rise (potentially) at room temp?

Any advice appreciated!
Biz

[Pete-zza]

Biz,

It is perhaps too early to know when your dough will show more signs of life. Unless you used some method, such as the poppy seed trick, it is possible that the dough has risen but you couldn't detect it visually. As I understand it, Papa John's doughs can last for up to eight days of cold fermentation, maybe even nine days. In your case, I suggest that you let the dough ferment for another 24 hours. If you don't see clearer signs of expansion, you might bring the dough out to room temperature around 8-10 hours before you plan to use it. This is something that I did with one of my PJ clone doughs when it behaved similarly to yours, as I discussed at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308.

Peter