Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[Pete-zza]

If you were watching PJ Garlic sauce over the past twelve years, then you weren't even on the forum then. 

Norma,

What I meant was watching the progression on paper of the different versions of the PJ Garlic sauce as set forth in Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041. In that vein, I did some additional searching to see if there were any other versions that might have helped with the reverse engineering effort but I did not find any.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What I meant was watching the progression on paper of the different versions of the PJ Garlic sauce as set forth in Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041. In that vein, I did some additional searching to see if there were any other versions that might have helped with the reverse engineering effort but I did not find any.

Peter

Peter,

I understand now.  I didn't really relate the 2001 circa date you posted until 2013.

Norma

[norma427]

I got around to my next attempt on the PJ Garlic sauce a little late tonight, but this is what I used and the results.

1 oz. Parkay Squeeze
1 gram soybean/vegetable oil
total of 3 tads (with mini-measuring spoon) after adding one and two tads of Butter Buds sprinkles
3 grams total water after adding 1 gram and 2 grams of water 
0.60 gram of the Shurfine garlic powder
1 pinch salt between my thumb and forefinger

After tasting my attempt and PJ Garlic sauce the taste of mine is okay, and a lot better than yesterday, but not like PJ Garlic sauce.  PJ Garlic sauce looks like it has more oil than my does and is thinner.  I am going to let my attempt sit overnight to see if it changes in flavor at all and also might become thinner.  I could have added a little yellow food coloring, but I don't want to do that yet.
If anyone is interested this is what the back of the package says about the Butter Buds Natural Butter Flavored Mix.  It looks like hot water needs to be added, but that should not be a problem if it would be left to cool down before adding the mixture of water and that product.  The other one photo is also of how the granulated Butter Buds looks in the opened container. 

Norma

[CDNpielover]

Norma, I hear you.  I've always thought that PJ sauce was very, very oily.  it's almost like popcorn butter or something. 

[norma427]

Norma, I hear you.  I've always thought that PJ sauce was very, very oily.  it's almost like popcorn butter or something. 

CDNpielover,

I am beginning to wonder why PJ Garlic sauce wasn't that oily when I first tried it at Reply 463 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259807.html#msg259807 It was buttery tasting, but there was more separation in that PJ garlic sauce than the one I recently opened.
It can be seen what the PJ Garlic sauce looked like in the squeeze bottle at Reply 453  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259767.html#msg259767  I watched that shift manager squirt that PJ Garlic Sauce on the skin of the breadsticks and it sure didn't look like the PJ Garlic sauce I recently opened.  In that photo of the PJ Garlic sauce in the squeeze bottle it can be seen the separation of the oil (or whatever it is) from the other ingredients.  When I watched the shift manager squirt that out in a spiral pattern it sure didn't look oily and squirted out in a nice spiral pattern and I didn't see it oil off at all.  I even wonder by looking at that photo how much oil to other ingredients ratio there is.  Maybe that could help me determine how much oil to add (or some other product, other than oil), or at least help somewhat.   

I agree with you that it almost tastes like the buttery flavor that is put on popcorn and the second container I opened is almost that oily.  I wonder what kind of product can be used to make the PJ Garlic Sauce that isn't that high in trans fats.  I don't know when I am going to open another container of the PJ Garlic sauce, but I am interested in seeing if it is anything different in how it separates.  That has me stumped too.  I wish I still had some of the buttery flavoring stuff we used to put on popcorn.  I think that would make the consistency and flavor right, but then the trans fat probably would be way off.

I never tasted Smart Balance light butter flavor popcorn http://www.smartbalance.com/products/popcorns/light-butter-popcorn but I see in the Nutrition Facts that they use corn and palm fruit oils in the ingredient list and artificial flavor derived from Lactose-free milk and it is colored with Annatto.  Maybe we should start to look at different popcorn products that say they are lower in trans fats, but then I am no good at determining really how they compare with the PJ Garlic sauce in Nutrition Facts.  This is another popcorn product.  http://www.fooducate.com/app#page=product&id=85991CAE-3E5A-11E0-A55F-1231380C180E   I don't know how Odell's Popcorn Topping would compare, or even their Premium Canola Popping Oil.  http://www.popntop.com/popntop_pprod.html  http://www.popntop.com/popntop_popcanola.html  Another one is Supur-Kist Two NT http://www.popntop.com/popntop_concessiontopping.html

Nate mentioned also that the PJ Garlic sauce is different sometimes at Reply 475 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259956.html#msg259956

Norma

[norma427]

This is a photo of the Ingredients in the Shanks's Artificial Butter Flavor.  I tasted it again this morning and I really don't think it would be a good product to try for a PJ Garlic sauce clone since there is only artificial flavor in that product.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I wonder what kind of product can be used to make the PJ Garlic Sauce that isn't that high in trans fats.

Norma,

As was discussed at Reply 518 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260292.html#msg260292, we already know how PJ keeps the trans fats low. It uses a blend of liquid soybean oil and an amount of hydrogenated soybean oil to keep the trans fats low. Looking at the various popcorn products and oils that you cited, none would fit the PJ Nutrition Facts. They either have Total Fat levels that are too high, or contain Trans Fats, Carbohydrates and, in some cases, even Cholesterol, Dietary Fiber and Protein. If you look at the PJ Nutrition Facts for its Garlic sauce at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/5/subMenu.html ,what you will see is 0 Trans Fats, 0 Cholesterol, 0 Carbohydrates, 0 Dietary Fiber, 0 Sugar and 0 Protein. Anything that changes those numbers can be ruled out of contention. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be tried and used. It only means that such products would not produce clones of the PJ Garlic sauce and perhaps should be addressed in their own threads.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

This is a photo of the Ingredients in the Shanks's Artificial Butter Flavor.  I tasted it again this morning and I really don't think it would be a good product to try for a PJ Garlic sauce clone since there is only artificial flavor in that product.

Norma,

The current PJ formulation for its Garlic sauce (set forth below for convenience) includes "natural & artificial" flavor. Since garlic (dehydrated) is already cited in the list of ingredients and that list also has no reference to "natural garlic flavor", and since presumably the Garlic sauce needs some flavor beyond the lactic acid, such as a "butter" type flavor, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that the "natural & artificial" flavor could include a product such as the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor. That product might be supplemented by a natural butter flavor but the other flavor might be a natural garlic flavor. We just don't know.

Current Version (2013): Soybean oil, water, salt, contains less than 2% of garlic*, vegetable mono & diglycerides, natural & artificial flavor, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, lactic acid, sodium benzoate (a preservative), calcium disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, citric acid, carotene(color), Vitamin A palmitate added. *Dehydrated

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The current PJ formulation for its Garlic sauce (set forth below for convenience) includes "natural & artificial" flavor. Since garlic (dehydrated) is already cited in the list of ingredients and that list also has no reference to "natural garlic flavor", and since presumably the Garlic sauce needs some flavor beyond the lactic acid, such as a "butter" type flavor, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that the "natural & artificial" flavor could include a product such as the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor. That product might be supplemented by a natural butter flavor but the other flavor might be a natural garlic flavor. We just don't know.

Current Version (2013): Soybean oil, water, salt, contains less than 2% of garlic*, vegetable mono & diglycerides, natural & artificial flavor, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, lactic acid, sodium benzoate (a preservative), calcium disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, citric acid, carotene(color), Vitamin A palmitate added. *Dehydrated

Peter

Peter,

What kind of product do you think that can be tried to get that buttery oily mouthfeel in a clone PJ Garlic sauce and still meet the current Ingredient List.  I am at a loss of what to try. 

I can put a little of the Shank's artificial butter flavor into the recent PJ attempt to see what happens.  I was going to make a dough for Tuesday yesterday, but since this PJ Garlic sauce is harder to replicate than I ever imagined, I think I will wait until another week to try the cheesesticks at market. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

What kind of product do you think that can be tried to get that buttery oily mouthfeel in a clone PJ Garlic sauce and still meet the current Ingredient List.  I am at a loss of what to try. 

I can put a little of the Shank's artificial butter flavor into the recent PJ attempt to see what happens.  I was going to make a dough for Tuesday yesterday, but since this PJ Garlic sauce is harder to replicate than I ever imagined, I think I will wait until another week to try the cheesesticks at market. 

Norma,

I think I would go with the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor to see if that gets you in the right direction. Unfortunately, there are so many forms and brands of artificial butter flavorings. However, here is one that is sold by Durkee Foods on its foodservice side that looks more promising because it has both natural and artificial flavors: http://profileshowcase.foodprofile.com/ProductUpc/000280tonebrothers/047600344936?MFR_NUM=000118. From the retail side of the Durkee website at http://www.durkee.com/productsearch?type=cat&cat=7&let=B, it looks like there may be a comparable product at the retail level but I did not see the ingredients list for that product.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Here is another imitation butter flavor that looks even better than the Durkee product: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pmak-20. As noted at the Amazon website, the McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor includes Soybean Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors and Lactic Acid. All of those ingredients are in the PJ Garlic sauce. Interestingly, there are no Nutrition Facts for the McCormick product since, as noted next to the ingredients list, the product has no significant nutritional value.

As you can see from https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B6FLOI/?tag=pmak-20, the retail McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor has entirely different ingredients. They are the same as your Shank's product.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I think I would go with the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor to see if that gets you in the right direction. Unfortunately, there are so many forms and brands of artificial butter flavorings. However, here is one that is sold by Durkee Foods on its foodservice side that looks more promising because it has both natural and artificial flavors: http://profileshowcase.foodprofile.com/ProductUpc/000280tonebrothers/047600344936?MFR_NUM=000118. From the retail side of the Durkee website at http://www.durkee.com/productsearch?type=cat&cat=7&let=B, it looks like there may be a comparable product at the retail level but I did not see the ingredients list for that product.

Peter

Norma,

Here is another imitation butter flavor that looks even better than the Durkee product: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pmak-20. As noted at the Amazon website, the McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor includes Soybean Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors and Lactic Acid. All of those ingredients are in the PJ Garlic sauce. Interestingly, there are no Nutrition Facts for the McCormick product since, as noted next to the ingredients list, the product has no significant nutritional value.

As you can see from https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B6FLOI/?tag=pmak-20, the retail McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor has entirely different ingredients. They are the same as your Shank's product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links to the Drukee products and the McCormick products both at retail and on the foodserice side. 

I did try adding 2 grams of the Shank's product to my last PJ Garlic sauce attempt and although it gave a better butter taste and mixed well, there still wasn't that oily mouth-feel.  I then added a little more soybean/vegetable oil and water to see if that would make the ingredients separate more, or give it a better mouth-feel, but that didn't happen.  The mixture was still homogeneous.  I now put both my attempt and the PJ Garlic sauce into the freezer to see either of them separates and also to see which one might freeze faster.  I might end up mixing my attempt and the PJ Garlic sauce together to see what happens.

What could be in the PJ Garlic sauce that gives it the really good mouth-feel?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

What could be in the PJ Garlic sauce that gives it the really good mouth-feel?

Norma,

I think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecithin. The PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread have similar ingredients in that respect although the Parkay product does not have diglycerides listed as an ingredient, only the monoglycerides. The consistencies of the products may also have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecithin. The PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread have similar ingredients in that respect although the Parkay product does not have diglycerides listed as an ingredient, only the monoglycerides. The consistencies of the products may also have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Peter

Thanks for explaining that you think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecthin, or maybe the consistencies of the two products may have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

My curiosity got the better of me so I decided to purchase some Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and to conduct a hydration bake test using that product.

For my test, I decided to try to emulate the PJ Garlic sauce from a weight perspective. To do this, I added some dried garlic powder, a bit of soybean oil, and a bit of salt to the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread. I allowed a little slack in my numbers to account for the small amounts of the other ingredients used in the Parkay Squeeze product. The ingredients and their weights were as follows:

26 grams, Parkay Squeeze margarine spread (60% vegetable oil)
1.134 grams soybean oil (1/4 t.)
0.60 grams of dried garlic powder
0.17 grams, salt (1/32 t.)
Total weight = 27.904 grams

I put the above mixture into a metal jar lid (with a weight of 12 grams) and heated it in my countertop oven for about 1 1/2 hours. My oven does not have very accurate temperature control but I estimate that the temperature varied between 200-230 degrees F, particularly with the many door openings to check the progress of the test. After about a half hour, I noticed that the mixture was bubbling. I continued the test until I saw that the bubbling had pretty much subsided. I then let the mixture cool and weighed it on my small digital scale and did some calculations to determine how much water was in the test sample. The number I came up with was 35.9%. Previously, I indicated that according to the NutritionselfData.com website a generic 60% vegetable oil margarine spread contains about 37.5% water. That is a difference of only 1.6%. That difference is small enough to lead me to believe that there may be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products.

One of the things that I noticed when I conducted the test is that there was some residue of solid ingredients that settled at the bottom of the mixture. Quantitatively, it seemed to be more than the amount of dry garlic powder that I used for the test. I believe what may have happened is that the dry garlic powder was rehydrated by the water in the Parkay Squeeze product and increased in volume.

When I have a chance, I may repeat the above experiment but use only the Parkay Squeeze product. That should tell me if the residue was solely attributable to the dried garlic powder. And the test might confirm the results of the above test with respect to water content.

Peter

[norma427]

My curiosity got the better of me so I decided to purchase some Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and to conduct a hydration bake test using that product.

For my test, I decided to try to emulate the PJ Garlic sauce from a weight perspective. To do this, I added some dried garlic powder, a bit of soybean oil, and a bit of salt to the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread. I allowed a little slack in my numbers to account for the small amounts of the other ingredients used in the Parkay Squeeze product. The ingredients and their weights were as follows:

26 grams, Parkay Squeeze margarine spread (60% vegetable oil)
1.134 grams soybean oil (1/4 t.)
0.60 grams of dried garlic powder
0.17 grams, salt (1/32 t.)
Total weight = 27.904 grams

I put the above mixture into a metal jar lid (with a weight of 12 grams) and heated it in my countertop oven for about 1 1/2 hours. My oven does not have very accurate temperature control but I estimate that the temperature varied between 200-230 degrees F, particularly with the many door openings to check the progress of the test. After about a half hour, I noticed that the mixture was bubbling. I continued the test until I saw that the bubbling had pretty much subsided. I then let the mixture cool and weighed it on my small digital scale and did some calculations to determine how much water was in the test sample. The number I came up with was 35.9%. Previously, I indicated that according to the NutritionselfData.com website a generic 60% vegetable oil margarine spread contains about 37.5% water. That is a difference of only 1.6%. That difference is small enough to lead me to believe that there may be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products.

One of the things that I noticed when I conducted the test is that there was some residue of solid ingredients that settled at the bottom of the mixture. Quantitatively, it seemed to be more than the amount of dry garlic powder that I used for the test. I believe what may have happened is that the dry garlic powder was rehydrated by the water in the Parkay Squeeze product and increased in volume.

When I have a chance, I may repeat the above experiment but use only the Parkay Squeeze product. That should tell me if the residue was solely attributable to the dried garlic powder. And the test might confirm the results of the above test with respect to water content.

Peter

Peter,

Glad to hear you curiosity got the better of you and you decided to do a hydration bake test using the Parkay Squeeze product along with the other ingredients.  Good to hear from your hydration test that you think there might be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products. 

Did you taste your mixture of Parkay Squeeze product with the other ingredients added to see if you thought it tasted, or looked anything like the PJ Garlic sauce?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Did you taste your mixture of Parkay Squeeze product with the other ingredients added to see if you thought it tasted, or looked anything like the PJ Garlic sauce?

Norma,

I did mix everything together at the outset but I did not taste the mixture at that time because I didn't want to alter any of the numbers. By the time I was done, I did taste the mixture but it was in liquid form at that point. I didn't think to put the mixture in the refrigerator to harden it again but even if I had I wouldn't have been able to tell how it compared with the PJ Garlic sauce since it was so long ago that I last sampled that product. My mind was on whether a hydration bake test with the PJ Garlic sauce would tell us how much water is in it. That number, if different than the corresponding number for the Parkay Squeeze product, could tell us if water would have to be added to the Parkay product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

My mind was on whether a hydration bake test with the PJ Garlic sauce would tell us how much water is in it. That number, if different than the corresponding number for the Parkay Squeeze product, could tell us if water would have to be added to the Parkay product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that would help to determine how much water would have to be added to the Parkay Squeeze product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce. 

I didn't know you have not tasted the PJ Garlic Sauce lately.

Norma

[pythonic]

Norma,

How long till your dough is ready?

[norma427]

Norma,

How long till your dough is ready?

Nate,

My dough for the cheesesticks is ready now.  I was sidetracked for a little while, but I still will bake them tonight.  Is there something you wanted to tell me about them?

Norma