Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[c0mpl3x]

use the 17-17.5 ounces of dough that c0mpl3x suggested in Reply 273

i find that using a slightly thinner dough than what PJ would use produces a better tasting dough than one that is overly too thick and uneven, related to using 18oz or more of dough, in a home oven.   commissary mixers and dough worklines handle dough specifically the same way every time, for days/weeks/years at a time and produce a consistent product.

also, a larger mass of dough is harder to work with if you are inexperienced, as you will usually wind up with a skin larger than you aimed for. 

[TMTM]

Over position - Does the lowest oven position make the bottom of the pizza cook faster then the toppings? and a higher position cooking the toppings faster then the bottom crust?

[Pete-zza]

Over position - Does the lowest oven position make the bottom of the pizza cook faster then the toppings? and a higher position cooking the toppings faster then the bottom crust?

TMTM,

In my electric oven, yes. I often move a pizza that has baked on the lowest oven rack position to the upper oven rack position to get more top crust/cheese browning.

Peter

[TMTM]

TMTM,

In my electric oven, yes. I often move a pizza that has baked on the lowest oven rack position to the upper oven rack position to get more top crust/cheese browning.

Peter

I just got my pizza screen in the oven today and I put it down on the bottom the whole bake.. the bottom was nice and brown while the cheese was white... wanted to get the cheese well done but soft crust.. I'll try it on a higher rack next time.. btw it tasted good anyway.. but wife like soft papa johns crust.. if you keep the wife happy etc etc...

[c0mpl3x]

yesterday i looked at the manufacturer of the perforated discs used in papa johns.

they are quik-discs, made by lloyd industries. 
http://www.pizzatools.com/Original_Quik-Disk_40/31089/subgrouping.htm?sort=sku

[turo1973]

I have some questions. What is IDY? Is not too much oil (25.87 grs.)? Some say use one tablespoon, and last question, in the photo "PJ4 dough ball 1.JPG" are you using semolina to knead it and avoid it to be sticky?

Than you very much for your patience and amiability  .

[Pete-zza]

turo1973,

All of your questions relate to what I wrote and showed in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197.

IDY is a common abbreviation for "instant dry yeast". That term, as well as many other pizza-related terms, is discussed in greater detail in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html.

The 7.3% oil (25.87 grams) was my best estimate of the amount of oil to use based on my research of Papa John's nutrition information. Analyzing that type of information is not easy to do, so it is possible that my estimate is not 100% correct. It is also possible that one can use a different amount of oil and still get good results. Someone might not even notice a difference. I believe the same applies to the amount of sugar used. But, I believe that both the oil and sugar are used in amounts that are greater than with other pizza styles. In your case, you should feel free to experiment and do your own comparisons with a real Papa John's pizza. I would certainly be interested in your results and comments if you decide to conduct your own experiments.

I used the semolina blend because that is what Papa John's uses. Since it is used as a bench flour, some of it will inevitably find its way into the dough as the dough is being shaped. A Papa John's dough, whether a real PJ dough or a clone dough, should not be sticky, but if it is for any reason, for example, due to overfermentation, then the semolina blend will reduce that stickiness just like any other bench flour.

Peter

[turo1973]

Hello Peter 
In almost all recipes I have seen the yeast is added to warm water and salt and/or sugar and let it foam and after that it is added to the flour and other ingredients but in your recipe you say to mix all but the yeast and when it is already a dough then (not before) you add the yeast to the dough, it is very different from the other recipes, when you add the yeast to the dough can it still ferment the dough and will it still rise?

Thank you for your patience

[Pete-zza]

In almost all recipes I have seen the yeast is added to warm water and salt and/or sugar and let it foam and after that it is added to the flour and other ingredients but in your recipe you say to mix all but the yeast and when it is already a dough then (not before) you add the yeast to the dough, it is very different from the other recipes, when you add the yeast to the dough can it still ferment the dough and will it still rise?

Turo,

You touch upon a very important aspect of the Papa John's dough, both for an original Papa John's dough and a clone of that dough. What is important to keep in mind is that Papa John's has to deliver dough balls made in commissaries scattered around the U.S. to its several thousand stores twice a week. The dough balls are fresh, not frozen, and have to be delivered to the stores in refrigerated trucks. The doughs have to be usable in the stores from about 5-8 days.

There are only so many ways to accomplish the above objectives. One way is to use small amounts of yeast and try to keep the dough balls as cold as possible. Using IDY or ADY (active dry yeast) in their conventional way (adding IDY dry to the dough mix or rehydrated ADY to the dough mix) might achieve a usable window of a few to several days but that might not be sufficient to allow the dough balls to last up to 8 days under the operating and logistical model used by Papa John's. A more unconventional approach that can achieve that objective is to add the IDY toward the end of the dough making process. An even more unconventional method would be to use ADY in dry form, without rehydration. There is nothing particularly unusual about adding yeast toward the end of the dough making process. That is frequently done with doughs that employ autolyse methods. Some bakers also add the yeast toward the end of the dough making process, usually to delay the fermentation process. I spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with prolonging the lives of pizza dough balls, and found that I could make dough balls that could last weeks under refrigeration and still be usable. Some of the principles that came out of that experimentation were incorporated into the dough formulation that I posted in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. You can read about those experiments in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that Papa John's uses methods such as those described in that thread.

You mentioned in your last post about adding the yeast to warm water and salt and sugar, and then to the flour, etc. There are people who do that but I do not. I specifically don't add IDY or ADY to water along with salt and/or sugar. There are ways of doing that, but the steps have to be done in the proper sequence so that the salt and sugar do not impede the performance of the yeast through osmotic action. Under normal circumstances, when I use IDY, I usually add it directly to the flour. If I use ADY, I usually rehydrate it in a small amount of water at around 105-110 degrees F for about 10 minutes. I don't add ADY directly to salt and/or sugar in the water. When I use salt or sugar, I usually dissolve the salt or sugar in water (preferably) or I add them dry to the flour. For the Papa John's clone doughs, I departed from those general methods with respect to the yeast but I did that in order to be able to make dough balls that can last up to about 8 days under refrigeration.

Peter

[Stevorino]

P00000ete, 000

Thanks for putting all of this together.  I am a very novice pizza-maker but have been slowly ramping up my efforts at home.  My wife LOVES papa johns, and she compares every pizza I've made to a papa johns pizza.  So I am finally attempting at equaling papa johns so I can move on to other styles. 

In my search for cloning this recipe, google brought me to this thread and awesome site.  So you deserve my thanks: thank you.

I have prepped 2 versions of your dough that are currently in the fridge fermenting:  'Reply 2: 5 day' and the 2 day version.  I wanted to try both to see the difference between a 2 day and 5 day fermentation.

My main question for you at this point is how to cook this pizza.  I have a pizza stone (I believe it is 14 inch) and a round pizza sheet (like a cookie sheet - no holes). 

So:

1) How should I cook this given my current options
2) For next time, assuming I'm willing to get the ideal device to hold the pizza in the oven, what should I buy?

Thanks Pete - great stuff in this thread.  Your efforts are much appreciated here in Atlanta, GA!

   Steve 

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

All of the Papa John's clone pizzas that I have made and reported on in this thread were baked on a pizza screen (mainly 14"). The reason is that I was trying to do things the same way as Papa John's but using a standard electric home oven rather than a conveyor. However, there are some members who have baked their PJ clones directly on a pizza stone, apparently with good results based on the reports I have seen. So, as between a stone and a non-perforated pizza sheet, I would go with the stone. However, because of the high sugar content of the PJ clone dough, which can lead to premature or excessive bottom crust browning when baked directly on a preheated pizza stone, I would monitor the bottom crust browning to be sure that it isn't excessive. If it does brown too quickly, I would move the pizza off of the pizza stone to a higher oven rack position. That will slow down the bottom crust browning but increase the top crust and cheese browning and also speed up the bake of any toppings. If you and/or your wife are happy with the results, then I suppose that could become your standard way of making the PJ clones. But, to be truer to the PJ pizza style, you would perhaps want to get a pizza screen or one of the new perforated PSTK disks from PizzaTools.com that PJs is transitioning to in its stores (I myself have not tried using the disk). If you get to the point where you want to explore such carriers, let me know and I can provide more details on them.

Peter

[Stevorino]

Pete,

Thanks for the quick response.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on pizza trays, disks, and other carriers. 

Thanks!

Steve

[Pete-zza]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on pizza trays, disks, and other carriers. 

Steve,

I suggest that you do an Advanced forum search at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced or use the Google search feature at the bottom of each page of the forum to find threads/posts on this subject. I have written extensively on the use of pizza screens. I have written about disks also, specifically, perforated disks, but less so since they have not done nearly as well in my standard electric home oven. Disks were designed for conveyor use, where the heat distribution is different than what I can get in my home oven.

Peter

[Stevorino]

Thanks Peter - sounds like screens are the way to go.  I'll do a search this weekend!

[Stevorino]

I'm going to start this with the good news, because it was what matters:  This was probably the best pizza I've ever made.  Also, I had problems with the cooking surfaces which was a learning experience for next time.

The pertinent information:  This first pizza was made using the 2-day fermentation option (5-day is in the fridge working away).  It was very good.  As my wife put it best, "Some bites taste like classic PJ and some bites just taste like good pizza." That was the story of the pizza.  Being my first attempt, I'd say that some of it is to blame on my cooking surfaces.  I started with a round cookie-sheet on the top shelf of the oven and tried to move it mid-bake to a pre-heated pizza stone.  Unfortunately the pizza was sticking to the sheet, so I just moved the cookie sheet down and placed it on the pizza stone.  Next time I will put a little bit more flour/cornmeal down on the cookie sheet so that doesn't happen again.

Great pizza recipe that is, at the very least, very much like Papa Johns style pizza.  I will post my thoughts on Pete-zza's 5 day recipe later this week!

Steve

[Pete-zza]

Earlier in this thread, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58413.html#msg58413, in response to a post by marc (widespreadpizza), there was a discussion of a supposed "mysterious ingredient" use in the Papa John's dough. Off and on, including recently at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13725.msg137596.html#msg137596, there have been other attempts to resolve the mystery. As I noted earlier today at Reply 11 in that thread, I believe I have solved the mystery.

Solving the mystery was actually quite simple. I just called Papa John's, at the telephone number (1-888-404-7537) that I have used before to speak to someone at PJs about their products. I ended up being connected to Diane Helms. I had spoken to her before and assumed that she was just a customer service rep but one with a good working knowledge of the ingredients that go into their products and the related nutrition information. As it turns out, she is the PJ manager of domestic R&D. I even later found a photo of her at http://www.dnj.com/article/B2/20110507/BUSINESS/305080035/Papa-John-s-gains-heat-up-pizza-race. (Note: See EDIT below for a working link of a photo of Ms. Helms).

I asked Diane about the reference by John Schnatter (the founder and CEO of PJs) in the PJ Facebook video at
http://www.newlocaltv.com/media-center.html?videoid=76 to a particular kind of seed used to make the PJ flour. As previously noted, the reference is at about 3:15 in the video. I asked Diane what John Schnatter was saying about that seed. She said it is the Platte River seed. She went on to explain that that seed was developed specifically for PJs in order to achieve a particular flavor in the finished crust, a point she emphasized a few times during our conversation. The flour itself is a proprietary flour that is milled specifically for PJs, and whichever miller does the milling for PJs is not permitted to sell the flour to anyone else. It is exclusive to PJs. Diane believes that the name Platte River was given to the flour by people who were involved in coming up with the particular seed used to make the flour. It is not something that someone can go and ask for and expect to end up with the PJ flour. For what it is worth, a quick Google search shows that there is apparently a Platte River in Nebraska. Nebraska happens to be one of the growing areas for hard red spring wheat.

I also asked Diane about the protein content of the PJ flour. I specifically mentioned that at one time PJs promoted their flour as being a "high-gluten" flour. She said that that was still true. When I said that to me "high gluten" meant around 14% protein, she said "Well, it isn't quite that high". As I have mentioned before, I have suspected that PJ's flour was in the 13.0-14% range. I think that that may also be true of many of the large pizza chains. For one thing, it tends to lend itself better to a delivery type pizza than a pure high-gluten flour that can lead to an overly chewy and leathery crust when it cools down during delivery.

Peter

EDIT (8/10/12): For a replacement link showing a photo of Ms. Helms, see http://www.comparechains.com/team/.
EDIT 2 (10/25/13): Replaced the Facebook video link with another video link
EDIT 3 (6/8/14): For additional commentary on the Schnatter video, see http://louisville.eater.com/archives/2013/08/19/papa-john-revealed-some-of-his-pizza-ingredients-in-2010.php

[Mad_Ernie]

Thanks for the information Peter.   

I'm certainly familiar with the Platte River around here, and now that statement from the video makes more sense. 

I ordered a PJ pizza last week for the family just to get out of a rut and we were quite satisfied with the product.  It is still probably the only major national pizza chain that I will consider ordering from for delivery/take-out.

[Pete-zza]

M_E,

From a reverse engineering and cloning standpoint, it appears that I got lucky when I was able to get the ingredients lists out of Papa John's. When I was doing some PJ-related research today, I came across a wellness blog, at http://sacredwellness.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/inquiry-into-papa-johns-pizza/, where the posters were complaining that Diane Helms was unwilling to provide the PJ ingredients lists to them. I received my copy almost three years ago, from a PJ's corporate headquarters employee who apparently is no longer with the company or has moved into another position. I can't assure anyone that my clones are tracking the latest iterations of the PJ pizzas. But the ingredients lists, along with the PJ Nutrition Facts, were very useful in coming up with the various clones discussed on this thread. So, I am grateful I got the information when I did. Today, I would be out of luck without the ingredients lists.

Peter

[ggrashow]

Just made a PJ Clone to Pete-zza's recipe.  It came out incredibly good.  I mixed the dough in an old fashioned hand operated dough maker, used KA Sir Lancelot flour (sifted), used my own sauce, fresh mozzarella chunked, a little Parmesan under the sauce, mushrooms and fresh basil.  8 minutes at 500° cooked it to perfection. If I knew how to post the photos, I would.  Thanks for a great recipe..........Gary, New Hampshire

[Pete-zza]

Gary,

I'm glad the PJ clone recipe worked out so well for you. Can you tell me which recipe you used specifically?

Using the KASL flour perhaps puts you closer to the type of high-gluten flour that PJ's used years ago. Now I believe that they use a somewhat softer, lower-protein flour-- one that is milled exclusively for PJ.

Peter