Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[norma427]

I'll bet he is Norma....and the guy behind him at the mixer too. 
Maybe that is why that photo was taken....that's pretty cool if it is true don't you think?   
All of 'em need makeovers though! 

Bob,

I didn't think about the guy at the mixer being the same man too, but I believe you might be right.  I don't know if you looked at the comments on facebook of that post of PJ, but some of them are interesting.  I thought it was kind of neat that those 3 men had the same pose as years ago.  Why do you think they need makeovers? 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Why do you think they need makeovers? 

Norma

Just being silly Norma.   But hey... how about that John Schnatter fella, eh?  He sure has aged well. Hardly looks a day older than his "Before" pic.    I hear he's a real health nut....lifts weights alot and stuff. I don't blame him...he gonna need to live a loooong time to be able to spend all the dough he's got! 

[Pete-zza]

I don't know if you looked at the comments on facebook of that post of PJ, but some of them are interesting.

Norma,

One of the interesting comments at the PJ Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/papajohns) is that the dough balls used at the PJ stores are "practically frozen" when they are unloaded from the trailer. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that were true. In fact, for a dough that is to last up to eight days, that is exactly what I would recommend if I worked for PJ. A few years ago, I ran into a Domino's employee in a local supermarket where I shop (he had the Domino's logo on his shirt)and I asked him if the Domino's dough balls were frozen. While he didn't exactly answer my question, he hesitated so long before responding that I came away with the impression that the dough balls were quite cold if not frozen. Tom Lehmann has reported over at the PMQ Think Tank that Domino's uses frozen dough balls, but I was told by a Domino's customer service rep that the dough balls are fresh. I'm not sure that it makes a great deal of difference. As you know, we discovered over at the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser. But for marketing purposes, both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card. It apparently plays better on Main Street.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,
Do you think Domino's employees have to sign a secrecy statement when first hired?

[norma427]

Norma,

One of the interesting comments at the PJ Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/papajohns) is that the dough balls used at the PJ stores are "practically frozen" when they are unloaded from the trailer. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that were true. In fact, for a dough that is to last up to eight days, that is exactly what I would recommend if I worked for PJ. A few years ago, I ran into a Domino's employee in a local supermarket where I shop (he had the Domino's logo on his shirt)and I asked him if the Domino's dough balls were frozen. While he didn't exactly answer my question, he hesitated so long before responding that I came away with the impression that the dough balls were quite cold if not frozen. Tom Lehmann has reported over at the PMQ Think Tank that Domino's uses frozen dough balls, but I was told by a Domino's customer service rep that the dough balls are fresh. I'm not sure that it makes a great deal of difference. As you know, we discovered over at the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser. But for marketing purposes, both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card. It apparently plays better on Main Street.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that comment about the practically frozen dough balls was also interesting.  I know we found out over on the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser.  I can understand why for market purposes that both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card.  The next time I visit PJ I might ask an employee if the dough balls are frozen when they receive them.

I was reading PMQ Magazine August's issue recently to see if I could get more marketing ideas for my own pizza stand.  I found the article about the X Factor interesting.  Part of the article talked about youth-targeted marketing tactics and an emphasis on simplicity and consistency having made Pizza X a Bloomington favorite for 30-plus years.  Mease and his business partner Lennie Busch broke away from Domino's.  They were employees of Domino's.  Another thing I found interesting in that article was on page 27 and the next few pages it says that they owe a debt to Domino's and it also mentions PJ also owes what is has done to Domino's.  This isn't the whole article that was in the PMQ Magazine, but part of it.  http://www.pmq.com/August-2013/Pizza-X-uses-youth-oriented-marketing-tactics-to-dominate-delivery-in-Bloomington-Ind/  I can't find the direct link to the X Factor article, but in it  says:  “I have tremendous respect for Domino's Pizza and Tom Monaghan and what they accomplished during their first 25 years.” Mease says.  “Monaghan revolutionized the business and demonstrated what was possible.  Many of us, from me to John Schnatter and everyone in between in the delivery business, owe our livelihood to him.”

Norma

[norma427]

Just being silly Norma.   But hey... how about that John Schnatter fella, eh?  He sure has aged well. Hardly looks a day older than his "Before" pic.    I hear he's a real health nut....lifts weights alot and stuff. I don't blame him...he gonna need to live a loooong time to be able to spend all the dough he's got! 

Bob,

I agree that Papa John has aged well.  I can only wish I could have some of his dough.   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you think Domino's employees have to sign a secrecy statement when first hired?

Bob,

Most big companies require their employees to enter into non-disclosure agreements as part of their initial employment agreements. I would imagine that both Papa John's and Domino's have such agreements. Unfortunately, many low level employees, such as the ones hired at minimum wage, forget that they entered into such agreements, or maybe even flout them if they have a gripe, and are prone to revealing information that they should really keep secret. That is one of the reasons why many of the big chains use a commissary business model. It is at the commissary level that most of the trade secrets exist. At the store level, which are really just assembly operations, there are some but not a lot of important trade secrets. For stores that make their own dough, rather than from a commissary, there is a greater risk of disclosure of trade secrets although some of this risk can be mitigated by putting ingredients in containers that do not reveal source or other information. Jet's does a good job of this. Some chains, like Mellow Mushroom and Buddy's, do not state weights of what they consider to be a "serving". That is an indirect way of not disclosing some of their trade secrets.

The more important agreements are often those with top management personnel that are more privy to the company's trade secrets. In addition to non-disclosure provisions, their agreements can also include noncompete provisions.

Domino's is actually quite open about many parts of its business. It provides Nutrition Facts and ingredients lists at its website, it provides weights of what it considers to be a "serving", and it has participated with others in creating videos that describe many aspects of its business. Papa John's also publishes Nutrition Facts and serving size weights but not the ingredients list. However, PJ will sometimes reveal ingredients for some of its products if a customer or a consumer with concerns about allergies, veganism or other health or nutrition related concerns raises such issues with the company. But, this is done only on a case by case basis and directly with the customer or consumer. PJ will not provide documentation for all of their products as it once did, although a lot of their old information can be found on the Internet. 

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I don't know if you saw the article on PJ's but there was an article about Papa John's on Yahoo News yesterday at http://news.yahoo.com/papa-johns-doesnt-want-know-food-194013379.html   

This is what Papa John's Pizza replied on facebook.  https://www.facebook.com/papajohns/posts/10151621872917639 

Some of those comments are interesting.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for the articles. I had not seen them. However, they do confirm what has been posted before in this thread on the frozen versus fresh dough matter, and also the degree to which Papa John's discloses information on its ingredients to end users (see Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg271739/topicseen.html#msg271739 and Reply 566 just before your last post).

The claim that PJ uses frozen dough has dogged PJ for years. As I recently noted, I think it is possible that some of the PJ doughs balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores. When you are trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperature, things will happen that occasionally and unintentionally push that temperature below freezing. Welcome to the real world. But as you and I know from our Mellow Mushroom experience, frozen dough balls are not the end of the world.

While I haven't yet read all of the Facebook comments, from those that I have read I do not see anything new as far as the PJ dough is concerned.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

I read some of those comments and all I can say is that American pizza chain eaters have been conditioned to eat some real crap pizza. It's very sad IMO. Face Boogers left an right defending PJ's...."oh no; it's never frozen, I worked there!" etc.  How pathetic.  Frozen or not it's still a crummy pizza with a crummy dough man!  Sheesh!!   IMO that is. 

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for the articles. I had not seen them. However, they do confirm what has been posted before in this thread on the frozen versus fresh dough matter, and also the degree to which Papa John's discloses information on its ingredients to end users (see Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg271739/topicseen.html#msg271739 and Reply 566 just before your last post).

The claim that PJ uses frozen dough has dogged PJ for years. As I recently noted, I think it is possible that some of the PJ doughs balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores. When you are trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperature, things will happen that occasionally and unintentionally push that temperature below freezing. Welcome to the real world. But as you and I know from our Mellow Mushroom experience, frozen dough balls are not the end of the world.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with what you posted and do think it is possible that some of the PJ dough balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores.  I also agree that when trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperatures things could happen.  I know from our work on the Mellow Mushroom thread frozen dough balls aren't the end of the world.  I don't think I would have known the difference in the taste of the final MM pizza with or without a frozen dough ball. 

That same article was posted at USNews too.  http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2013/08/13/what-papa-johns-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-food

I get a few chuckles out of comments on facebook.  Maybe I should post your PJ clone pizza on PJ facebook page.  That could rile people up more, or either have more people try to make their own PJ pizzas.  I think people would find out that your clone is quite tasty. 

Norma

[norma427]

Frozen or not it's still a crummy pizza with a crummy dough man! 

Bob,

Did you ever try Peter's PJ clone pizza.  I think you would be surprised on how good it tastes if you didn't try it. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Bob,

I do not see anything fundamentally wrong with the PJ dough formulation, although I can understand and appreciate that some people will not like a dough/crust and/or a pizza sauce with a lot of sugar. My quibbles with the PJ pizzas as sold commercially have always been in two areas.

First, is the cheese. At PJ's website, this is what PJ says about the cheese:

If you like cheese, you'll love our signature mozzarella cheese. It's exclusive to Papa John's and crafted from 100% mozzarella and high-quality milk by one of America's finest cheese producers. Mild and delicate, yet full-bodied in flavor, it's proof that cheese really can “make” the pizza!

The above description might lead one to conclude that only 100% mozzarella cheese is used, and is made from high-quality milk, and nothing more. However, as was recently pointed out at Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, and also in prior posts dating back several years, the PJ cheese comprises the following ingredients:

Cheese: Part-skim mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes [chymax – NOT animal derived]), modified food starch [derived from corn], powdered cellulose (added to prevent caking), whey protein concentrate, sodium citrate, sodium propionate (added as a preservative). Contains MILK

I am pretty certain that the supplier to PJ of the above cheese product is Leprino Foods, out of Colorado, and a giant in the cheese industry. Leprino will formulate a cheese product in any way that its customers want. Alas, in this case, I think that a freshly shredded mozzarella cheese is a much better option. Unfortunately, PJ is not likely to go that route. With over 4000 stores, it just doesn't fit the PJ business model.

My second quibble has to do with the assembly of pizzas in PJ's stores, at least the one near me. The dough balls aren't always in the optimum state (they are often either underfermented or overfermented) and skins prepared for slam times are often held too long in their racks. And the skins can be docked unmercifully, even in the rim areas. All of these problems can be remedied in a home setting by people who are careful and care about the end product.

As for some of the other items used to make PJ pizzas, the sauce is based on Stanislaus tomato products. For the type of pizza that PJ makes, you really can't do much better than that. Its pepperoni products come from reputable, quality sources. The sauce used by PJ is as follows:

Pizza Sauce: Vine-ripened fresh tomatoes, sunflower oil, sugar, salt, spices [oregano, black pepper, basil], garlic*, extra virgin olive oil and citric acid. *Dehydrated No trans fat.

For some, the sauce might be too sweet but that goes with the territory when purchasing PJ pizzas. In a home setting, a clone can be made with less sugar, and using Stanislaus (or Escalon or Classico) products.

So long as people choose to buy PJ pizzas rather than making clones at home that better meet their needs, they will continue to be disappointed in many cases.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

Did you ever try Peter's PJ clone pizza.  I think you would be surprised on how good it tastes if you didn't try it. 

Norma

Nope, but I'm sure Peter's is light years different than the luke warm, barely cooked through stuff I've gotten out of PJ's cardboard box. 

[Pete-zza]

I get a few chuckles out of comments on facebook.  Maybe I should post your PJ clone pizza on PJ facebook page.  That could rile people up more, or either have more people try to make their own PJ pizzas.  I think people would find out that your clone is quite tasty. 

Norma,

I labor under no pretenses that the PJ pizzas, clone or otherwise, are the end all or be all. My original reason for trying to reverse engineer and clone the PJ original dough was because the PJ pizzas scored well in customer satisfaction surveys and I had sufficient information in order to conduct my experiments. I was also able to purchase real PJ pizzas. I would never had proceeded with the project if I had not asked for and received the ingredients list from PJ at the time. The Nutrition Facts for the PJ pizzas existed then but they would have been inadequate without more. Also, back then, I knew considerably less about Nutrition Facts and how best to analyze and use them.

As for posting my clone formulation, I would rather not see that happen. I don't want to have to look out of my windows for men in black suits wearing sunglasses and hiding in the bushes and talking into their lapels, or someone hacking my email accounts, or cross-examining Craig and other members because I attended Craig's Summits. Also, I would prefer not to have to hire food tasters to sample my meals before consuming them.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

I imagine you were seeing a lot of requests here for that clone process to be undertaken too.

I wouldn't want it on FB either...you think you got a lot of work now....

[norma427]

Norma,

I labor under no pretenses that the PJ pizzas, clone or otherwise, are the end all or be all. My original reason for trying to reverse engineer and clone the PJ original dough was because the PJ pizzas scored well in customer satisfaction surveys and I had sufficient information in order to conduct my experiments. I was also able to purchase real PJ pizzas. I would never had proceeded with the project if I had not asked for and received the ingredients list from PJ at the time. The Nutrition Facts for the PJ pizzas existed then but they would have been inadequate without more. Also, back then, I knew considerably less about Nutrition Facts and how best to analyze and use them.

As for posting my clone formulation, I would rather not see that happen. I don't want to have to look out of my windows for men in black suits wearing sunglasses and hiding in the bushes and talking into their lapels, or someone hacking my email accounts, or cross-examining Craig and other members because I attended Craig's Summits. Also, I would prefer not to have to hire food tasters to sample my meals before consuming them.

Peter

Peter,

I understand your reasoning on why you decided to reverse engineer and clone the PJ original dough.  I know back then you knew considerably less about Nutrition Facts and how to best analyze and use them.  You sure did a good job on this thread. 

I was only kidding about posting the link to this thread.  I wouldn't want you to have to look out your windows for men in black suits wearing sunglasses and doing all of that other stuff you mentioned. 

You are far too valuable to this forum and I and other members don't want you to have more work to do.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

One of the interesting comments at the PJ Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/papajohns) is that the dough balls used at the PJ stores are "practically frozen" when they are unloaded from the trailer.

Here is an article that came out yesterday talking about how closed-lipped PJ's is with respect to their ingredients which does seem rather strange given their "Better ingredients, better pizza" marketing.

One employee they talked to noted that the dough was frozen.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2013/08/13/what-papa-johns-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-food

[Chicago Bob]

From that article....

By not disclosing what's in its food, Papa John's is revealing that it doesn't think too much of its customers. It is either asking customers for blind trust or assuming people are too stupid and complacent to ask questions. When we do ask questions, they refuse to answer. At least that was my experience, both when I approached Papa John's as a journalist and a customer. This strikes me as a foolish approach in an age when American eaters are demanding more transparency (see GMO labeling) when it comes to food, not less. For some reason, Papa John's has failed to realize that when you hoist your entire brand up on the idea of high-quality food, you'd better be able to back it up.

[Pete-zza]

Here is an article that came out yesterday talking about how closed-lipped PJ's is with respect to their ingredients which does seem rather strange given their "Better ingredients, better pizza" marketing.

One employee they talked to noted that the dough was frozen.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2013/08/13/what-papa-johns-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-food

The U.S. News report is the same one that Norma cited recently at Reply 570 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg272892.html#msg272892. The original article that she cited is the one at Reply 567 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg272859.html#msg272859.

Yesterday, I looked at over 500 comments at PJ's Facebook page. There were several comments that the PJ dough was frozen. But that was nothing new to me. I have been reading such comments for years. In fact, several years ago, one of PJ's competitors, Mr. Jim's Pizza, took a jab at its website at what I believed was Papa John's on the matter of fresh vs. frozen dough. I went back to Mr. Jim's website and the jab piece is still there, at http://www.mrjims.com/product_descriptions.cfm.

Peter