Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[Pete-zza]

From that article....

By not disclosing what's in its food, Papa John's is revealing that it doesn't think too much of its customers. It is either asking customers for blind trust or assuming people are too stupid and complacent to ask questions. When we do ask questions, they refuse to answer. At least that was my experience, both when I approached Papa John's as a journalist and a customer. This strikes me as a foolish approach in an age when American eaters are demanding more transparency (see GMO labeling) when it comes to food, not less. For some reason, Papa John's has failed to realize that when you hoist your entire brand up on the idea of high-quality food, you'd better be able to back it up.

I personally have never had a problem getting information from Papa John's. I originally worked with Jane McCoy at PJ corporate headquarters until she left the company. I both spoke to her on the phone and through emails. When she left, I went to Diane Helms. As I mentioned in Reply 295 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg139427/topicseen.html#msg139427, I reached Diane through an 888 telephone number. That number is given at the PJ website under Additional Information on the PJ Nutritional FAQ page at http://www.papajohns.com/faqs/nutritional-faqs.shtm. As can be seen at Reply 295, I did get some useful information out of Diane that I did not have before.

Through the years I have found an enormous amount of information on PJs products via the Internet. That is how I was able to compose a post such as at Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041. That post is with respect to PJ's dough and related products but there is a wealth of information on the Internet for many of its other products. Of course, some of that information becomes dated with the passage of time.

The above notwithstanding, it perhaps was a PR blunder for PJ not to be more responsive to the requests of the author of the articles on Papa John. But that doesn't mean that I think that Papa John's should reveal everything about its products. I don't think they worry about someone like me who tries to reverse engineer and clone their pizzas (if the thought even ever occurred to them that someone like me exists) but they may be concerned about competitors or potential competitors who might be able to use PJ's trade secrets or other proprietary information in ways that might be against PJ's interests. I think is is smart that PJ tightened up the grip on what it will reveal to the public.

Peter

[norma427]

More about Papa John's.

http://papajohnsblog.com/

http://money.msn.com/now/post--papa-johns-fires-back-at-magazine-claim 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for the followup items on the PJ brouhaha.

I have routinely looked for the ingredients lists of pizza operators for years and can safely tell you that the only major pizza chain that publishes ingredients lists on a consistent basis is Domino's. And if you saw what goes into their pizzas (http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf), you perhaps would not want to eat one. For many years, Pizza Hut used to publicize its ingredients lists but it stopped that practice about four or five years ago. I do not recall ever seeing an ingredients list from Little Caesar except for its fundraising pizza kits.

The disclosure policies of the smaller chains beyond nutrition information, which just about everyone provides, is mixed. For example, Papa Gino's, Godfathers Pizza, Pizzeria Uno's and Hungry Howie's publicly disclose their ingredients lists but Jet's, Mellow Mushroom, Monical's, Donatos, Buddy's/Shield's/Detroit Style Pizza Co, Round Table and Shakeys do not. Companies that sell frozen versions of their pizzas at the retail level, such as Home Run Inn, Malnati's, Vito and Nick's II, California Pizza Kitchens, Giordano's, and Gino's East, disclose Nutrition Facts for their pizzas (since they are required by law to do so) but that doesn't mean that they use the exact same ingredients and in the same quantities in the pizzas sold in their stores. None of these companies discloses what is used in their own stores although HRI insists that it uses the same dough in its stores as in its frozen pizza production facilities. Some companies will also provide ingredients lists to end users under contract, such as schools, because they are required by local law to do so.

As I have previously noted, many pizza operators will tell consumers and other end users what goes into some of their products if requested. I would also add that Papa John's isn't the only one who touts the quality of their ingredients. They all do it in one way or another. You won't find anyone with the slogan "Lousier ingredients, lousier pizza". Where Papa John's screwed up was in its failure to promptly respond to the writer of the article on this matter. And once the article went viral, it was too late.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for the followup items on the PJ brouhaha.

I have routinely looked for the ingredients lists of pizza operators for years and can safely tell you that the only major pizza chain that publishes ingredients lists on a consistent basis is Domino's. And if you saw what goes into their pizzas (http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf), you perhaps would not want to eat one. For many years, Pizza Hut used to publicize its ingredients lists but it stopped that practice about four or five years ago. I do not recall ever seeing an ingredients list from Little Caesar except for its fundraising pizza kits.

The disclosure policies of the smaller chains beyond nutrition information, which just about everyone provides, is mixed. For example, Papa Gino's, Godfathers Pizza, Pizzeria Uno's and Hungry Howie's publicly disclose their ingredients lists but Jet's, Mellow Mushroom, Monical's, Donatos, Buddy's/Shield's/Detroit Style Pizza Co, Round Table and Shakeys do not. Companies that sell frozen versions of their pizzas at the retail level, such as Home Run Inn, Malnati's, Vito and Nick's II, California Pizza Kitchens, Giordano's, and Gino's East, disclose Nutrition Facts for their pizzas (since they are required by law to do so) but that doesn't mean that they use the exact same ingredients and in the same quantities in the pizzas sold in their stores. None of these companies discloses what is used in their own stores although HRI insists that it uses the same dough in its stores as in its frozen pizza production facilities. Some companies will also provide ingredients lists to end users under contract, such as schools, because they are required by local law to do so.

As I have previously noted, many pizza operators will tell consumers and other end uses what goes into some of their products if requested. I would also add that Papa John's isn't the only one who touts the quality of their ingredients. They all do it in one way or another. You won't find anyone with the slogan "Lousier ingredients, lousier pizza". Where Papa John's screwed up was in its failure to promptly respond to the writer of the article on this matter. And once the article went viral, it was too late.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling more about what pizza chains publish and what they don't publish.  I knew some of that from your other posts here on the forum, but sure didn't know all what you said. 

I know that Papa John's isn't the only one that touts the quality of their ingredients and agree they all do that in one way or another.  Lol about the slogan “Lousier ingredients, lousier pizza”.   

I agree that Papa John's messed up and then that whole thing went viral.  I didn't expect that to happen though.

Norma

[Morten]

Flour (100%):369.99 g  |  13.05 oz | 0.82 lbs
Water (58%):214.6 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (0.10%):0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Salt (1.50%):5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):15.54 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.9 tsp | 1.3 tbsp
Total (171.1%):633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1

How mutch IDY would you use for a 2 to 3 day cold fermentation?

[Pete-zza]

Flour (100%):369.99 g  |  13.05 oz | 0.82 lbs
Water (58%):214.6 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (0.10%):0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Salt (1.50%):5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):15.54 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.9 tsp | 1.3 tbsp
Total (171.1%):633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1

How much IDY would you use for a 2 to 3 day cold fermentation?

Morten,

I suggest that you try the following PJ clone dough formulation instead:

Flour* (100%): Water (56%): IDY (0.28%): Salt (1.9%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%): Sugar (5.89%): Total (169.62%):

339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs 190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs 0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp 18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp 19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.01 tsp | 1.67 tbsp 575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A

*The flour should have a protein content between 13.4-13.6%
Note: Dough (20 ounces) is for a 14" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.12992; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The amount of yeast specified is for a two-day cold fermentation. For a 3-day cold fermentation, try 0.25% IDY.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Last night, I found myself part of a captive audience with nothing to eat but Papa John's Pepperoni pizza.  If those are better ingredients and that is better pizza, God help those who have to eat lesser pizza made from lesser ingredients. 

[Bugsforbob]

Last night, I found myself part of a captive audience with nothing to eat but Papa John's Pepperoni pizza.  If those are better ingredients and that is better pizza, God help those who have to eat lesser pizza made from lesser ingredients. 

AMEN!

[Jdurg]

Back onto the discussion about the PJ's garlic sauce, I was wondering if anybody looked at the Orville Redenbacher's  "Popping and Topping Buttery Flavored Popcorn Oil"?  The ingredients on the bottle I have states "Soybean Oil, Artificial Flavor, Colored With Beta Carotene" and that is it.  Nutrition information is as follows:

Serving Size:  1 Tbsp
Calories:  120 (120 from fat)
Total Fat:  14 g
Saturated Fat:  2 g
Trans Fat:  0 g
Cholesterol: 0 mg
Sodium: 0 mg
Total Carbohydrates: 0 mg
Protein:  0 mg
Vitamin A and Vitamin C:  0% DV
Calcium and Iron:  0% DV

I use this stuff all the time on homemade popcorn and it has a very buttery flavor that seems to be enhanced with salt, and also leaves that oily residue in your mouth that I remember from when I used to eat Papa John's pizza back in college.  (11 years ago).  Here in Southeast Connecticut, there are ZERO Papa John's restaurants.  The closest one to me is a good 45 minute drive so I haven't had the chance to try it out since leaving college over a decade ago.  Still, this thread has made me crave some of those cheesesticks and pizza with the garlic sauce so I may have to experiment myself.  It's just that I wouldn't be able to tell if what I experimented with was exactly right, or just "good enough for my failing memory".  lol.

[Pete-zza]

Jdurg,

The Papa John's Special Garlic Sauce is essentially a margarine spread with natural and/or artificial garlic and butter flavors. When I was researching this subject, I came across many butter (natural and/or artificial) flavorings that had their origins in the popcorn food sector. I don't recall seeing any such flavorings that also included garlic flavoring (they may exist but I don't recall any) but the garlic part is fairly easy to solve.

Just as Norma demonstrated in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.0.html, it is possible to take a commercial butter flavoring, such as Whirl, and combine it with a margarine spread to come up with something that is acceptably close to the PJ Garlic Sauce, even if the final formulation does not fully satisfy the PJ Nutrition Facts. The part of the PJ Nutrition Facts that usually comes up short is in the fat and trans fat areas. As you may know, trans fats are vilified in today's health and nutrition environment, and many food processors go to great lengths to remove trans fats from their products. Many of the commercial butter flavorings are fairly high in fats and can have levels of trans fats that the FDA requires be disclosed. PJ has managed to keep the trans fats at levels that do not require disclosure (that is, the trans fat entry is zero).

As it so happens, the Orville Redenbacher's Popping and Topping Buttery Flavored Popcorn Oil that you mentioned has zero trans fats. That is because the oil is pure soybean oil, not hydrogenated or partially-hydrogenated soubean oil. On the other hand, the total fats in that product are fairly high and, when combined with a margarine spread (such as the Parkay Squeeze or other margarine spread), will place the final product outside of the PJ Nutrition Facts. But unless you are trying to avoid trans fats or high fat levels in general, that is something I would not worry about. So, in your case, you might try adding some of the Orville Redenbacher's Popping and Topping Buttery Flavored Popcorn Oil to a margarine spread, along with some dry garlic powder, and see if you like the results. In concocting such a sauce, you will want to be sure that the final texture approximates the PJ Special Garlic Sauce as much as possible.

If you are interested in clones of the PJ Cheesesticks, you might want to take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258088.html#msg258088. With what is reported in this thread, and in the two threads referenced above, I think you should be able to product a credible PJ clone pizza, clone pizza sauce, clone cheeseticks, and clone garlic sauce that are better than what you will find at a PJ store itself.

Peter

[Jdurg]

Thanks Pete-zza.  I have a ball of your 2-day dough sitting in my fridge.  It has risen just as expected.  As a chemistry/scientist person myself, I'm happy that this is turning out as expected.  I was at the grocery store today and bought some sticks of the Stop And Shop brand margarine today.  It has the same ingredients as the base PJ garlic sauce does aside form the garlic.  I picked up a batch of it and mixed 75% of the margarine, 25% of the Orville Reddenbacher's Butter Oil, and a half teaspoon of McCormack's garlic powder.  This turned out exactly like I remembered from the garlic sauce when I had Papa John's in college.  My roommate said that the couldn't tell the difference.  I have that dough ball of Papa John's dough sitting in the fridge now, and it will be ready for cooking on Saturday.  Thank you so much for all your help.  The scientific nature of your recipes is great to follow, and I'll soon be adding this style pizza to my already well perfected Deep Dish pizza recipes. 

[Pete-zza]

Jdurg,

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you are using?

I wish you well with your PJ clone pizza and faux PJ Special Garlic Sauce. I hope you will report back on your results with both products.

Peter

[norma427]

Jdurg,

I wish you well too with your PJ clone pizza and your different concoction of your PJ Garlic Sauce.  It seems you found another way of making a PJ Garlic Sauce which is interesting.  Always good to hear of another way to make a Garlic sauce that does taste like PJ Garlic Sauce.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

25% of the Orville Reddenbacher's Butter Oil, D

Well done Jay!!  I knew you were listening. 

[Jdurg]

Jdurg,

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you are using?

I wish you well with your PJ clone pizza and faux PJ Special Garlic Sauce. I hope you will report back on your results with both products.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I used the version of your recipe that was posted right before your same day variety was posted.  Can't recall the exact reply number here, but it was fairly early on in the thread.  Thanks everyone also for the well wishes.  Once I get this ready for baking, I'll take some pictures and get them uploaded to this thread. 

[Jdurg]

One other thing that I can mention about the margarine I picked up.  It is GREAT for seasoning a pan!  I had bought the two 12" DD pans that arrived the other day and had kept one unseasoned and seasoned one of them.  The one I seasoned was more brownish with some splotchy parts as the peanut oil I used seemed to not coat evenly no matter what I did.  So for the second pan I used the margarine I bought to try to recreate the PJ Garlic Sauce.  This coated the entire pan very evenly and didn't really puddle.  I put the pan in my outside gas grill with all the burners on high.  30 minutes later, with the grill thermometer showing 550 degrees F, I turned off the burners and let the pan sit and cool off.  Opened the lid of the grill, let some of that acrid smoke leave, and now have a beautiful, evenly coated, slick layered, beautifully seasoned pan.  I'll be taking photos later before I go and use it to create a deep-dish pizza this evening.  The blackening is just amazing and it will be interesting to see how this aluminum coated steel pan bakes as opposed to the pure aluminum pan that I believe I've been using before.  (And the AMCO pan is definitely not Tin coated steel as at the temperatures I had this sitting in for 30 minutes would have melted all of the actual tin off had it been tin).

[nick57]

For the last few weeks I have been trying to improve my cracker crust pies to no avail. So, I decided to take a break. I have been following this thread for quite some time. I have not had a PJ pie in quite a while, so I have no way to judge at the moment how close this tastes to the real thing.

This was one of the easiest pies I have made. The dough ball opened with ease. I followed Pete's directions for a two day rest in the fridge. I made the dustinator flour with my mini food processor, just added the flours, and drizzled in a little oil. I did make two changes to the recipe. I can't find Escalon’s 6-in-1 maters, so I used Classico crushed tomatoes. I have not bought a screen yet. I baked the pie on the stone for 5 minutes, then I moved it to an upper shelf to finish. The bottom was nice and brown and did not burn. The rim may be a little small for a PJ pie, and maybe it browned up a little more than the real deal. I liked the flavor profile of the sauce and the crust. This is one pie I can take to my friends for the FB games that I know they will love.

 I am just wondering how they will hold up. After I cook them I will let them cool on a rack then put them in a pizza box. It's a 25 minute drive. Once I get there I was going to put them in a 375 degree oven till the cheese starts to melt again. Do you guys think they would still taste good after that?

[Pete-zza]

Nick,

Your PJ clone looks very good.  I assume that you used the dough formulation at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. If so, you might want to note that I made some changes to that formulation after coming into possession of some new information that was not available to me when I posted Reply 20. I also did some further analysis of PJ Nutrition Facts that led to some slight changes. If you are interested in the update, see Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667.

As far as your question about how to transport the finished pizza is concerned, I have not done what you want to do but maybe some other member can give you some advice on the matter. What I do recall, however, is that leftover slices of the PJ clone pizzas I made in the past reheated very well.

Peter

[nick57]

Yes, I used the formulation on reply 20. I thought I would use that as my starting point. It was about the easiest skin I have formed, I did it in the same fashion as per the PJ videos. I'll check out the update for sure. I had read on the thread that the leftovers tasted pretty good when reheated. I may make one at home and let it cool on the rack then move to the box for the 25 minutes. Then I will reheat and see what happens. The PJ pie may not be what a purist would like, but I know the people I will serve it to will like it, and I guess that's what counts anyway. I'll post my results of the reheating experiment. Thanks for the great thread and your skill at engineering a clone. It was a success for me.

[Pete-zza]

Nick,

If you do a Google Image search on Papa John's pizzas, and you ignore the professional photo shoots, you will discover two things. Your pizza will look a lot better than most of the PJ pizzas shown, and the rims aren't always large. I have often complained about the cheeses that PJ uses, and now I know why. Some of their pizzas are really grungy looking and unappetizing.

While I was conducting the Google Image search, I found the photo shown below. It shows how PJ prepares for slam time.

Peter