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Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 641497 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1380 on: September 05, 2018, 10:47:28 AM »
I have also read a lot of Tom's posts, I felt like he is an expert too, actually, the first post I made here, was a question for him, I didn't know how to quote from the posts, so I guess he never saw it because I didn't get an answer, can I ask you the question I asked him? It was in this thread, there are only like 6 or less posts there, so it will not be hard to find, I still don't know how to link straight to my post, sorry, here's the link.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53735.msg541631#msg541631
Gary,

Although Tom is retired, he is still active in the business, as a consultant, writing articles, making pizza videos, etc., so he sometimes fails to respond to all matters directed to him here on the forum (and maybe at the PMQ Think Tank forum as well) as he plays catchup. That was also the case on the PMQ Think Tank forum when he was a full-time employee of the AIB.

But, to address the question you posed in the post you referenced, my experience from this forum is that we have members, both professional and non-professional, who work with the dough while it is cold. And what seems to be a common thread is that the dough has a higher hydration than normal, making it easier to open the dough balls to form skins. But, I should also note that I have seen workers at PJ stores work with the PJ dough that is cold, right out of the cooler. They try their best to flatten the dough balls and then give the skins a real working over with a dough docker, along the lines shown in one or more of the videos I cited in my last post.

One of the problems working with cold dough is that large bubbles or blisters can form in the finished crust. Tom once addressed this issue and I included an excerpt from one of Tom's PMQTT posts at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7362.msg63551;topicseen#msg63551

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1381 on: September 05, 2018, 11:01:04 AM »
I still don't know how to link straight to my post....
Gary,

That is a problem that new members often have and eventually they figure out how to take a link in one post and include it in another post so that one is taken to the exact spot in a thread by clicking on the inserted link. I discuss how I do the foregoing at Reply 131 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg352352#msg352352

You can also use this method: 1) click on the topic heading of the selected post, 2) right click on it as it appears in the address bar and select Copy, and 3) in the spot in the post where you want to insert the link, right click and select Copy.

Peter

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1382 on: September 05, 2018, 10:28:37 PM »
Peter

Thank you for your kind words, and yes, artisanal look, that's kind of the look I was looking for, if I couldn't get the PJ's look, I will settle for the PJ flavor clone with the artisanal look  ;D

I already was doing what you suggested, about inviting friends to try the pizzas and give their opinion, and like you said, I feel like they would try not to hurt my feelings, so I tried something else, I asked random people walking by, if they would be interested in trying some artisanal pizza and give their honest opinion

Every person I asked said yes  :D so far they all liked the flavor, they said "esto esta muy bueno" this is very good, and true story, one of them told me, sir, would you sell me two large ones? I said, for reals? He said, yes of course, they are delicious! I was a little hesitant because I only had cold dough balls by then, since I had used the warmed up ones for the tasting, but I said ok then.

So I worked with a couple of cold doughballs, and even though they were kind of hard to stretch, they turned up pretty good, they guy was happy, and I was happy getting all the compliments, all in all it was a good day

And it was all thanks to you Peter

Gary


Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1383 on: September 05, 2018, 10:30:41 PM »
Cold dough baking on screen at 400 F

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1384 on: September 05, 2018, 10:36:57 PM »
Cold dough turned into a Hawaiian pizza, I know I know, pinneapple on a pizza, call the pizza police  ;D

Since I think I will never be able to get the look of a real PJ pizza, I will try to master the artisanal look

This is my 15th pizza ever!

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Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1385 on: September 05, 2018, 10:40:34 PM »
Bottom of the pizza, I don't know if it needs to be more brown or if this is fine

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1386 on: September 05, 2018, 11:21:07 PM »
Gary,


Out of curiosity, can you tell me what cheese you used and what choices you can access in Mexico where you are?


Peter

Peter

I use a cheap 5 kgs bag of mozzarella cheese bought at a place called "carne mart" it is where tiny local business buy their food supplies because they do sell cheap stuff, they are supposed to be a small-ish national chain, the brand on the bag of cheese is "Food Sevice" I guess the name says it all  ;D.

I also have the option of buying the cheese at the farmers market, there is a guy who sells the cheese from local farmers, I am not going to lie to you and tell you that I know about cheeses because I don't, but at least I know that that cheese is more fresh than the store bought  ;D

They also have mozzarella cheese at Sam's club, but I don't remember the brand, I will try to remember it

But as you can see, there aren't a lot of places to find good cheese, but the cheap stuff is not that bad, really.

It will keep cost low  ;D

Gary

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1387 on: September 05, 2018, 11:28:15 PM »
Gary,


As for videos showing how to handle dough, I did a search within this thread because I know that I and other members have previously referenced videos in their posts. Here are some of the the posts along these lines:

Reply 747 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482,

Reply 983 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg405670#msg405670,

Reply 261 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg127614#msg127614,

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58196#msg58196,

Reply 1329 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg515886#msg515886,

Reply 749 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325509#msg325509.

And here is a good video by Domino's expert pizza maker Diana Cline, 5 time Canadian Pizza Baking Champion, working an American style dough:



For a broad perspective in making dough, forming dough balls, and opening them up in a professional type setting, you might also want to take a look at the three Tom Lehmann videos referenced in Reply 1141 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg375523#msg375523.

As you will see, with practice and experience, one can become quite expert and proficient in making dough, forming dough balls, and forming them into skins.

Peter

Thank you also for the links to the videos and the references, I sure as hell need them because it is taking me a long time to form the disks, I am still afraid they are going to rip apart and do it really slow still, I will be checking all of that info because I need to learn how to do it properly, thanks Pete.

Gary

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1388 on: September 05, 2018, 11:39:13 PM »
Gary,

Although Tom is retired, he is still active in the business, as a consultant, writing articles, making pizza videos, etc., so he sometimes fails to respond to all matters directed to him here on the forum (and maybe at the PMQ Think Tank forum as well) as he plays catchup. That was also the case on the PMQ Think Tank forum when he was a full-time employee of the AIB.

But, to address the question you posed in the post you referenced, my experience from this forum is that we have members, both professional and non-professional, who work with the dough while it is cold. And what seems to be a common thread is that the dough has a higher hydration than normal, making it easier to open the dough balls to form skins. But, I should also note that I have seen workers at PJ stores work with the PJ dough that is cold, right out of the cooler. They try their best to flatten the dough balls and then give the skins a real working over with a dough docker, along the lines shown in one or more of the videos I cited in my last post.

One of the problems working with cold dough is that large bubbles or blisters can form in the finished crust. Tom once addressed this issue and I included an excerpt from one of Tom's PMQTT posts at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7362.msg63551;topicseen#msg63551

Peter

Thanks Peter for addressing my doubts. As you can see in my recent post, I made pizza with cold dough, and I had like one or two bubbles, but nothing bad, if anything, it makes the pizza look more artisanal, and baked them at low temps, but it was harder to shape for me, but as you know, I am learning as I go along, and I am learning a lot thanks to you and everybody who has ever posted their knowledge in the forum.

Gary

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1389 on: September 05, 2018, 11:44:02 PM »
Gary,

That is a problem that new members often have and eventually they figure out how to take a link in one post and include it in another post so that one is taken to the exact spot in a thread by clicking on the inserted link. I discuss how I do the foregoing at Reply 131 at:
 
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg352352#msg352352

You can also use this method: 1) click on the topic heading of the selected post, 2) right click on it as it appears in the address bar and select Copy, and 3) in the spot in the post where you want to insert the link, right click and select Copy.

Peter

I checked the referenced post about how to do the links, those instructions were waaaay harder to understand than the instructions to make pizza  ;D

I will read them more carefully tomorrow, with a rested mind  ;D

I appreciate your help Pete

Gary

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Offline Sebastianvettel

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1390 on: September 06, 2018, 04:40:12 PM »
The Pizza elgary posted is exactly what my tomato sauce looks like if I use tomato paste (mixed with water). It is so dark and bitter. I have no idea how pizza chains do it that it is a bit brighter and tastier.

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1391 on: September 07, 2018, 07:45:21 PM »
PJ's clone using Peter's modified version, dressed and ready to go into the wfo, second photo, same PJ clone coming out of the wfo. I know they don't look a PJ's pizza, but they sure taste just as delicious as PJ's

Gary
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 07:50:43 PM by elgary »

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1392 on: September 07, 2018, 08:05:15 PM »
Peter

I've been meaning to tell you that when I was making the 9 inches pizzas, the formulation you gave me, with the 54% hydration, for the AP flour that I am using, was working really great for the doughballs, they were nice and smooth, but when I used the expanded dough calculator using the 54% water, but for 14 inches pizzas, the dough came out really sticky, it was like glue, so hard to work with it, so I figured I would lower to 53% water, but I got the same results, went down to 52% same thing, but a lot less sticky, but when I got to 51% water, wow! The beautiful dough came back, smooth, satiny, easy to work with and most importantly delicious!

Thanks Peter, your advise made me think about lowering the water percentage, it worked like a charm

Gary

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1393 on: September 07, 2018, 08:45:00 PM »
Gary,

I wasnt sure what hydration value to suggest to you to use with the flour you are using in Mexico, so I pretty much suggested what I would do in the US. But at the same time, I was aware that most Mexican flours are milled to the point where there is excessive starch damage that can lead to a sticky dough. Whether that is a factor in your case is hard to say but you might learn something of value by reading these threads, including the posts by Tom Lehmann, from the PMQ Think Tank forum:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/lifes-a-beach-is-there-a-dough-doctor-in-the-house.8973/

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pz44.6350/

Id be curious to know if you think starch damage might have been the culprit behind your wet dough. Usually, the solution is to make short term doughs at room temperature, not to cold ferment them. But maybe really lowering the hydration value is another solution.

Peter

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1394 on: September 07, 2018, 11:49:16 PM »
Peter

After reading about starch damage from the dough doc, I would have to assume that the starch damage was the culprit behind my super sticky dough, but, at the same time, he also says that lowering the hydration value wouldn't do any good and that it wouldn't fix the problem, but guess what? It did for me, but then again, maybe it was a fluke, although my doughballs have been really nice and big and smooth and satiny after 36 hours in the refrigerator with the 51% of water in the formulation, so...

I really don't know what to think, you know I am no expert at this, and it was a little bit of a downer to read from the doc, that with the Mexican flour one can only hope for a 2 hour fermentation dough, I would not be able to start a tiny pizza business with that time frame, for the sake of the argument let's say I pretend sales of only 15 large pizzas a day, in an eight hour period, if the dough has to be ready when I open, after a two hour fermentation, and the doc says to bake it right after the fermentation, will my 15 dough balls be over fermented and useless after a couple of hours of opening my tiny shop? It sounds like I would have to make only a couple of doughballs every two hours ;D

It did crushed my tiny pizza dream, because par baking would not be practical in my case, so there goes that.

I guess I will have to reevaluate my options... damn you, Mexican flour!  ;D

Gary
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 11:56:02 PM by elgary »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1395 on: September 08, 2018, 09:21:19 AM »
Gary,

You already have demonstrated that you can make a pretty decent dough using the lower hydration value, so that may demonstrate that it is possible, and maybe even likely, that you can continue to do so. Flours can tolerate a pretty wide range of hydration/absorption values, even the flours here in the US, and sometimes, like in your case, you are using a fair amount of oil, and that oil has a wetting effect in itself, making the dough seem even more wet. I just wanted to alert you to the way that flour is milled in many places in Mexico in case you experienced something like Tom discussed in his PMQTT posts.

You indicated that you used the expanded dough calculating tool. Are you weighing the ingredients for your doughs? And how are you mixing and kneading the doughs? And have you been measuring finished dough temperatures?

It sounds to me that you have been making very good progress to date and that you and others have liked the pizzas you have been making. And that is with little prior experience. I would continue along the path you have set for yourself and continue to make and sample more pizzas. Over time, and with more practice and experience, that is how you become a competent pizza maker. So, I would not get discouraged.

Peter

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1396 on: September 08, 2018, 03:23:38 PM »
Gary,


You indicated that you used the expanded dough calculating tool. Are you weighing the ingredients for your doughs? And how are you mixing and kneading the doughs? And have you been measuring finished dough temperatures?

Peter


Peter

Thank you for the words of encouragement, I was feeling a little down after reading from the Doc, that I wouldn't be able to do much with the Mexican flour, but after reading your post, and remembering that my doughballs have been really smooth and easy to work with, I figured that if I just continue with the way I am making my dough, there shouldn't be any problem right?

Especially since every single random person that tries my pizza says that they are good and tasty, at first the only complain I got, was that I was putting too much sauce, I was using 6 oz. for a 14 inch pizza, I thought that was the right amount, but I lowered it to 4 oz. for the 14 incher, and everyone was happy, no more complains  ;D

As for your question...


Yes sir, I have been measuring every single little thing since the very beginning, I've got a digital scale from Amazon, so I have followed every recipe to the last gram.

This is how I mix and knead the dough: I do everything by hand for now, mixers are crazy expensive down here, even home mixers, so a mixer will have to wait, so, I used to do it in the order the thread suggested, but when I started getting super sticky dough, I changed things a little bit, first, I input what I need into the expanded dough calculator, I weight the results, grab an 8 qt. stainless steel bowl, and hand mix all the dry ingredients, flour, IDY, sugar and salt, after they mixed fully, I add half the water and start using my hand to mix dry ingredients with half the water, after water is absorbed, I add the rest of the water and keep mixing, once everything is fully incorporated, I follow Tom's advise of adding the oil once all ingredients are incorporated and look a certain way, ( there is a video of his showing the way the dough should look, so one can add the oil, but I couldn't find the video right now), so then I add all the oil and once the oil is also integrated into the dough, I take it out of the bowl, take it to the bench, and start hand kneading through a series of folds and stretches, until the dough looks smooth and satiny like Tom says and shows in the video, this step usually takes me between 10 to 15 minutes, it gives me a good workout!

Once the doughball is nice and smooth, I weight it, and start cutting it and balling it, I usually make enough dough for 4- 14 inch pizzas, which comes out a little bit over 2 kilos of dough, after I weight and ball the dough, I lightly coat them with olive oil, put each ball inside a gallon ziplock freezer bag, and put inside the refrigerator to go to sleep for about 36 hrs.

Since I hand knead the dough the final temp barely reaches 79-83 F.

After 36 hrs. They have doubled in size, they are smooth, nice looking, nice form, and I am getting better at opening and forming a skin, because lately, the dough has been a beauty to handle, not hard to do it at all!

And the pizzas are looking better, at least for me, and the people who gets to see them, they also say what you said, that they look artisanal, so I am guessing that will be my hook! Artisanal pizzas  ;D

This is the photo of my 19th PJ's clone, as you can see, they look nothing like PJ's, but I am liking the look  :D

Thanks Peter

Gary

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1397 on: September 14, 2018, 04:55:34 PM »
Recently, one of our most talented and respected pizza makers on the forum, Nick (nick57), decided to honor some football-loving friends with a PJ clone pizza. He used and carefully followed the instructions for the two-day cold fermented version of the PJ clone at Reply 20 at https://www.singlestorefront.com/papajohns/Thumbnail/Asset/CTDAR_VT_PJ_20551. That is one of the most popular versions because it only takes two days to use the dough, whereas the real thing takes three days to seven days (after the seventh day, workers in the PJ stores are supposed to throw the unused dough away, although I have read that some squeeze another day or two out of the dough).

As Nick reported at Reply 12996 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg543307#msg543307, and also at Reply 12969 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg543314#msg543314 and at Reply 12984 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg543421#msg543421, the PJ clone pizza was a big hit. In Nick's case, he baked the PJ clone pizza on a pizza stone (a Fibrament stone). This is a method that some of our members have used, whereas I always used a pizza screen. Nonetheless, I was happy to get the feedback. The photo below shows the PJ clone that he made. In his case, some of the pepperoni slices were under the cheese, whereas they are all above the cheese for a real PJ pepperoni pizza. But Nick used about 40 pepperoni slices, which is the number that PJ uses in its stores. Nick also used my recipe for a PJ clone sauce. He used a somewhat different cheese blend that included cheddar cheese but it was better I'm sure than what PJ uses in its stores and about which I have complained several times before in this thread for what I believe to be sub-par quality. See, for example, one of my PJ cheese rants at Reply 12989 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg543457#msg543457.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1398 on: September 14, 2018, 05:38:53 PM »
Today, one of our members, sodface (Carl), was nice enough to give me a link to a Papa John's Operations Manual. I am always interested in such documents to confirm what I have done in the way of reverse engineering and cloning pizzas. The link to that document is:

https://www.singlestorefront.com/papajohns/Thumbnail/Asset/CTDAR_VT_PJ_20551

It will be seen that the document is 379 pages long. Moreover, the pages are not consecutively numbered. That is because the total document is made up of many, many individual documents, and with different dates, that are combined in the full document and consecutively numbered. However, if one clicks the top of the document, the page number as part of the total pages will appear. I scanned the document quickly this afternoon, and I see that the overall document covers just about everything that goes into running a PJ store, including many helpful and detailed photos. Brand names of ingredients like flour, sauce, cheese, toppings and so on are not included. This information exists at the PJ Quality Control Centers (QCCs) and is not needed at the store level. Plus, ingredients are always subject to change and the brands so there is not much point putting brand names in operating manuals.

As an example of something that I had confirmed by the above document is the temperature of the PJ dough balls. PJ is often accused of using frozen dough balls. PJ has always denied this. And somewhere along the line I was told by someone at PJ headquarters that the coolers in the PJ stores did not operate at freezing temperatures. This turns out to be true. The proper cooler temperature range is 33 degrees F to 38 degrees F. The makelines are also at the same temperature range. What I found interesting is that if the temperatures in the walk-in cooler gets to 32 degrees F, someone at the store is supposed to immediately call the appropriate QCC to get instructions. The dough balls themselves are not supposed to be used before three days because of insufficient fermentation. And beyond seven days, any unused dough balls must be thrown away because PJ believes that dough exceeding its shelf life will not produce a product with proper flavor and texture. Dough that is overproofed is not supposed to be used at all.

I also confirmed that PJ uses the dough ball for a 14" pizza to make the basic PJ breadsticks. This is what I had been told before by a PJ store worker but I have experienced many cases where the store workers were wrong. So, it was nice to get the scoop on the PJ breadsticks.

I also saw that before PJ dough can be used to make pizzas, it must be at least 50F, with a range of 50-60 degrees F. That is a common range among several pizza chains from what I have read and been told, including by Tom Lehmann. If dough is in the above temperature range and just sitting around, it is supposed to be returned to the walk-in and cooled to 38 degrees F to 40 degrees F.

I plan to read more of the document cited above to get more tidbits that either confirm what I have done with clones or to correct things that I may have done incorrectly. Thus far, I have not seen any major errors but I won't know for sure until I read further into the document.

Peter

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1399 on: September 15, 2018, 04:17:32 PM »
This might be of interest

But seriously the 'rollback' making the crust browner?   :-\



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