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Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 590459 times)

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Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1440 on: November 16, 2018, 01:33:42 PM »
Hello Peter

The flour the guy uses in that thread you mentioned, is the flour I am using, San Blas, the only one I could find with the highest % of protein, 11%, and it is still really weak! Even thoug I am able to stretch it to my desired pizza size, I really have to be careful as to not rip it apart when forming the skin.

I will follow your advise about lowering the oil amount, I just have one question, let's say I lower the oil amount 3 points, to 2.55%, should I raise the water % the same amount of points I am taking off from the oil, in this case to 53%? Or should I leave it at the current 50%?

I have another question, I tried the advanced search but didn't get the results I was hoping for. By any chance, have you used the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour to make an American style pizza? And by that I mean the thicker kind, maybe around 0.12 TF?

The reason I ask is this, you know that is next to impossible to find good flours here in México, but I found a place that could source me with the Caputo flour, it is really expensive, that is why I ask if that flour can or should be used for another style of pizza other than neapolitan?

It is too expensive for me to buy it just to "see what happens"  ;D that's why I wanted to know if anybody has used the caputo pizzeria flour for other styles of pizza.

Thanks

Gary

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1441 on: November 16, 2018, 04:39:21 PM »
Gary,

I have not used 00 flour for a pizza style other than Neapolitan and, even then, I did not have a great deal of success because my standard home oven pretty much maxes out at about 525 degrees F and therefore doesn't do well with 00 flours. 00 flours are unmalted and to get decent crust browning you need much higher bake temperatures for doughs using 00 flours, typically above about 800 degrees F. I experimented with adding sugar and oil and even some diastatic malt to the 00 flour, and I also used a larger thickness factor to make a softer and thicker crust, but I could not reproduce the Neapolitan style of pizza in my home oven. They tasted fine for the most part but they were not credible reproductions of the Neapolitan style. Unless you have a very high temperature oven, preferably a wood fired one, I think I would pass on the 00 flour.

Offhand, I can only recall one recipe for using 00 flour alone for a pizza style other than Neapolitan and that is a recipe that Evelyne Sloman disclosed for a NY style. You can see it at Reply 606 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg41054#msg41054

I never tried that recipe myself. Also, I believe that the Caputo "blue" 00 flour that Evelyne used is a lower protein version of the Caputo Pizzeria flour. I think it might have been this one:

http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00_Extra-Flour-BlueBag-SPECS.pdf

But I think the abovereferenced recipe can be modified to use the Caputo Pizzeria flour.

Another option would be to blend the 00 flour with another flour. That is what Dom DeMarco at DiFara's does for his NY style. When I researched his pizza, he was using 75% 00 flour and 25% high gluten flour. I suspect that doing something like that in Mexico would be a real challenge.

Getting back to your question about lowering the amount of oil. I think I would just change the amount of oil and not increase the amount of water. If you find that the dough is too dry when you are kneading it, you can always up the amount of water at that time, but do it gradually, and note how much you add so that you can correct the amount of water the next time if needed.

Peter

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1442 on: November 17, 2018, 11:35:02 AM »
Peter

Thank you for all the info you provide, that is quite an interesting post from Evelyn Solomon, isn't?

So I guess I am stuck with my weak @ss Mexican flour for the moment, aren't I? That is why I don't post that much, there isn't really much to share, since I can't really do much experimenting with the stuff I can get here, there isn't much room to work with these flours, is there? I wish I could try all of the different formulations with all the different flours I have read in the forum, I may not post much, but I am here every chance I get to read and learn as much as I possible can.

And a trip to the US just to bring me a bunch of flours would be crazy expensive too  ;D that would be some really expensive pizza  ::)

By the way, I do have a high temp. oven, remember? I have been baking my seudo pj clones in my WFO, been using it with the gas option so I can control the temperature better.

I am just not into the whole neapolitan style of pizza, I like a good ole American style of pizza, nice and thick, I asked about the Caputo flour in case I could use it instead of KABF, or any of those high protein flours everyone uses here in the forum, but if using the caputo flour to make and American thicker pizza doesn't give good results, I guess I will just keep using my San Blas flour for now and save the money  :-D

Thanks for everything Peter.

Gary

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1443 on: November 17, 2018, 12:14:38 PM »
Gary,

I vaguely recalled that you have a wood fired oven but my thinking was that with all of the sugar in a PJ clone dough you might not be able to use super high heat. In fact, before you joined the forum I don't offhand recall anyone making a PJ clone pizza is a WFO. Even using a pizza stone has only been tried a few times and I usually cautioned the members to be very watchful of the bottom crust browning so as not to end up with a charred bottom crust.

It does look like you are limited in what you can do there in Mexico. I wasn't sure that you could even find vital wheat gluten to be able to follow Tom's advice.

Evelyne is a very interesting person. She hobnobbed with many of the classic NYC pizza makers of old and she ended up writing a book about pizza, called THE Pizza BOOK, Everything There Is to Know About the World's Greatest Pie, published in 1984 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/081291113X/?tag=pmak-20). There was some criticism of her book because it seemed to have been directed more to the home pizza maker used to recipes written with volume measurements and being more interested in whipping up pizzas on the spur of the moment rather than being artisanal about pizzas, as she herself was. In her own defense, she said that she wanted to put material in her book that came out of her exposure to the classic great pizza makers she knew but her publisher resisted her doing that. Evelyne also had a restaurant that sold pizza but I believe she is now retired. You can see what she looks like as of a few years ago in the photo below that was taken with Jeff Varasano who has his own pizza restaurants in Georgia. In the early days of his career, Jeff was an active member of the forum. But, as usually happens when members go professional, they find if difficult to squeeze in time to be active on the forum. The last time he visited the forum was in October of 2012. And the last time Evelyne visited the forum was in September of 2014. I suppose when you make it big, you, too, will say sayonara to the forum :-D.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:26:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline elgary

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1444 on: November 17, 2018, 02:16:29 PM »
Peter

First of all, no way I will make it big working with San Blas flours  :-D  :-D  :-D right? But the wish is much appreciated.

Second of all, no way I will say adios to the forum, the difference is,  Jeff and Evelyne already knew what they were doing before joining the forum, and I didn't, at all, I have learned everything about making pizzas from you and everyone in here, so I am not going anywhere. ;)

After I read your reply, I started looking for more posts of this lady Evelyne, she makes for a very interesting reading, thank for telling me of her. I knew of Jeff Varasano, I have read some of his posts and also his website with his tips on how to make great dough, which I tried, but with the flour I am using, I couldn't even finish it, if someday I get a hold of some strong flour, I will try it again. By the way, that is a nice picture of them, thanks.


 I just wish I could help more by showing/posting my pizza experiments, but there aren't many experiments to speak of, since I can only get weak flour, and there isn't much room for experimenting.  ;D it is basically the same formulation over and over and over, can't change much with my awesome flour  :-D

Gary

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Offline Kreetak

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1445 on: November 18, 2018, 10:26:00 AM »
Hello Peter,

Since I asked you for a make this pizza with sourdough all my attemps are a completly disaster  :'( You can imagine... I no take photos because of shame on me  :-\
- white crust
- no airy
- crust were too much crispy (yes, white and crispy, no comments)

I guess that I didn't find the good "recipe" so, I think that I will abandon my try to make this pizza with sourdough.
Although the taste of the dough and crust were good!

However, I want to say thank you!!

Offline Schoharie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1446 on: December 19, 2018, 03:42:38 PM »
Hello Peter and Gary and of course to everyone,

I have been following this thread for a long time. It has been very informative. And for that I would like to thank Peter and his dedication to this goal.

Hopefully, by telling you all about what we are doing down here ,we can get some help and maybe give Gary some ideas about dealing with our weak flours in Latin America. While we are all trying to bake a really credible PJC, we do not have the same goals and equipment. Let me tell you what my operation is trying to accomplish and maybe it could help Gary.

My business has a commisary and 3 pizza places. We intend to expand to cover new areas replicating Papa John´s dough production model at a commissary, cold fermenting in a comercial cooler, to be shipped on a refrigerated truck to several pizza places afterwards. Right now we are shipping dough to each location 4 times a week. So we need to develop a long fermenting quality pizza dough. We intend to resuply the pizza places twice a week. That means that our pizza dough has to have a window of usability of 5 days. And hopefully, need no more tan 3 days of cold fermentation prior to usage. So it needs to be used from day 3 to 7.

That’s our challenge. Develop the dough production and logistics processes to pull this off. Say we produce dough at 9 am on a Saturday. Ship it Monday afternoon. To be used starting Tuesday. And that it can be used Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday (Saturday if need be). We produce the dough at this central location and can store it in a comercial walk in cooler at any temperature from 34 to 38 F.

One key element is that we will use the same dough for stuffed crust pizza or regular. We just vary the size of the dough ball to allow for enough dough to roll the crust after we apply the crust filling which is a cream cheese.

We use impinger ovens set to 527 F. The place where we operate in South America is warm and humid. Like Miami, Florida.

And we have to do so, with the ingredients available to us here in South America. That means mainly weak flours. The best one we could source has 10.23% protein. That means heavy adjusting of the recipe to our flour. For example, and just to iluminate how pizza chains handle this problem, we have obtained the recipe Sbarro´s uses to operate in this market with the same flour we plan to use.

Flour (100%)      1000,000
Water (56,2%)      562,501
IDY (0,325%)      3,250
Salt (1,04%)      10,417
Oil (2,6%)      26,042
Sugar (2,08%)      20,833
Total (162,3%)

As Tom Lehman also recommends, we should notice that Sbarro´s, by limiting oil to 2,6% and also with 56,2% of water they were able to make it work with a flour that only has 10,23% protein. The total sum of ingredients is 162,3%.

Granted this recipe is not for extended use. It only has a window of usability of 36 hours. And this recipe calls for a period of rising prior to usage that elevates the temperature of the dough ball to 50 F at a minimun before forming and baking. Sbarro also substitutes 15% of the water used with ice to achieve a lower temperature after mixing prior to getting it to the cooler. Because sometimes in Latin America we mix dough in hot enviroments so the ice helps a lot.

Post PJC 585, by Peter, has a  recipe that has a total ingredient count of 169,62%. We have tried 585 without any adjustments and it yielded what you would expect with a weak flour (10,23% Protein) Non crispy at all, weak structurally. We could add Vital Gluten, but protein difference its too big to correct with this additive.

I was intrigued to learn of Gary’s efforts working against the same problem of low protein flour in Mexico. He posted this recipe.

Flour* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.32%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (163.66%) *he noted (169.62%) but I asumed it was a mistake.

As it was noted, weaker flours need less oil. And the hotter you bake you need to be careful with the amount of sugar. For example I have heard that PJ bakes their pizzas at 480 F for 4:50 minutes.

So given that in one hand you have the solution Sbarros uses, with this flour, and in the other hand you have the recipe that works with your strong high protein flour that is unavailable to us. What would you suggest as a course of action? Obviously it requires a lot of trial and error but how to and from where to start to try? Any thoughts about our challenge would be greatly appreciated.
We use a High velocity mixer. We use Saf instant Red IDY.







Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1447 on: January 25, 2019, 01:03:02 AM »
Peter,

Frank Giaquinto called me yesterday.  I didn't have time to search your whole thread to see if you or someone else might have posted information about frozen cheese, but Frank said PJ's mozzarella comes in frozen and is then defrosted.  Frank also said the mozzarella is a blend and from Leprino.  Frank also said he has worked for Pizza Hut and Domino's over the years just to see what they did.  Right now Frank is not working at Papa John's, but did.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chloesorvino/2017/05/23/james-leprino-exclusive-mozzarella-billionaire-cheese-pizza-hut-dominos-papa-johns/#58e24b4f4958

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1448 on: January 25, 2019, 09:30:28 AM »
Peter,

Frank Giaquinto called me yesterday.  I didn't have time to search your whole thread to see if you or someone else might have posted information about frozen cheese, but Frank said PJ's mozzarella comes in frozen and is then defrosted.  Frank also said the mozzarella is a blend and from Leprino.  Frank also said he has worked for Pizza Hut and Domino's over the years just to see what they did.  Right now Frank is not working at Papa John's, but did.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chloesorvino/2017/05/23/james-leprino-exclusive-mozzarella-billionaire-cheese-pizza-hut-dominos-papa-johns/#58e24b4f4958

Norma

Norma,

Thank you for your post and the link to the Leprino article. It is the best article that I have seen on the Leprino cheese empire.

I believe that Frank was referencing the QLC cheese blend from Leprino. I originally set forth the Leprino cheese that PJ was using when I started this thread at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58199#msg58199

But later, I also posted on the QLC product a few times. An example can be seen at Reply 9 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58413;topicseen#msg58413

The current Leprino cheese that PJ is using can be seen at the PJ website at:

https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html

One of the changes that Leprino made to its cheese that is noted in the above PJ link is to use sugarcane fiber. That is a more natural anti-caking ingredient.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1449 on: January 26, 2019, 04:37:14 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for your post and the link to the Leprino article. It is the best article that I have seen on the Leprino cheese empire.

I believe that Frank was referencing the QLC cheese blend from Leprino. I originally set forth the Leprino cheese that PJ was using when I started this thread at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58199#msg58199

But later, I also posted on the QLC product a few times. An example can be seen at Reply 9 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58413;topicseen#msg58413

The current Leprino cheese that PJ is using can be seen at the PJ website at:

https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html

One of the changes that Leprino made to its cheese that is noted in the above PJ link is to use sugarcane fiber. That is a more natural anti-caking ingredient.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for all of the links and information. 

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1450 on: March 14, 2019, 09:15:03 AM »
For a PJ clone dough formulation based on the PJ clone dough formulation as given at Reply 585 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667 but adapted for a much longer fermentation period, along the lines of the PJ clone dough formulation posted at Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197, see Reply 15 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg568565#msg568565

Member Buck47 (John) made a pizza (photos shown below) using the formulation at Reply 15 cited above, and based on the Winona flour milled from hard wheat, and posted his results at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg569214#msg569214.

Peter




Offline exchicagogal

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1451 on: May 08, 2019, 04:55:46 PM »
Can this pizza be cooked on a pizza steel? I am making the 8 hour same day version and curious what the process would be to be cooked on a steel? Thank you!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1452 on: May 08, 2019, 05:46:10 PM »
Can this pizza be cooked on a pizza steel? I am making the 8 hour same day version and curious what the process would be to be cooked on a steel? Thank you!
exchicagogirl,

I personally have no experience using a baking steel but I believe that member MadMatt has used such a steel more than any other member. If he or any other member who used a baking steel does not reply to your post you might search this thread by using the term "steel" (without the quotes) in the search box at the top right of this page. My recollection is that some members used a screen or parchment paper with a baking steel.

Peter

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1453 on: May 10, 2019, 05:29:42 PM »
Can this pizza be cooked on a pizza steel? I am making the 8 hour same day version and curious what the process would be to be cooked on a steel? Thank you!

Yeah it can I have and I know a few others who do too with no issue with burning I always used 4% sugar which is a little under the original but not much.

I put mine on parchment first, then take off the parchment after 2-3 minutes.

I cook on a steel thats heated about 560f for 5 1/2 to 6 minutes.  You can cook lower temp   which one forum member preferred a slightly longer bake.


I always make same day dough at RT its so much easier  than taking up room in fridge.

So long as you know what temp it is roughly in your house the only time it gets a bit of a bother is if we have some hot days which isn't too common here haha


Its usually about 19.5      to 20.5c in my house            and the yeast prediction charts does a great job.  Starting water temp makes quite a difference I have found, I just have the water  slightly warm to the touch and always hand knead because it only takes me about 6 minutes to knead a few 14" pizza's worth of dough and using a machine means you have to do more cleaning up.





Personally not a big fan of the Papa Johns,  I started  pizzas with it because I just wanted to make an American style pizza but I prefer slightly thinner bases and don't feel the need to have all the oil and sugar it has.




« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:33:24 PM by MadMatt »

Offline yangmanning

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1454 on: May 16, 2019, 01:11:25 AM »
Hi Everyone!

Firstly, Thanks so much Mr. Peter for your work and dedication to this craft. Your insight is invaluable for a novice home baker as myself.

I have just completed my first attempt at American Style Pizza and the result was quite good!

I used the recipe from reply 2 and cold fermented the dough for 4 days.

I only have 12 inch screens right now, so I adjusted everything by weight for a completed dough ball of 411g(as mentioned by Mr. Peter in a reply in this thread). For whatever reason, I couldn't get the dough calculator to work, I think it's because MacOS doesn't use flash. I made 3 dough balls.

I used CJ Beksul Korean bread flour with a 13% protein content and had to substitute the soybean oil with grapeseed oil.

Luckily, I made three pizzas, as it took me three tries to get the baking method to work. I setup my Miele wall oven with a cast iron pizza stone on the bottom rack and allowed the oven to preheat for about 20 mins at 260C conventional heat. The first pizza was baked on the pizza screen at the 2nd to bottom rack for 12 mins, and the top was complete, but the bottom was pale white. I realized that I had to bake the pizza on the stone for at least part of the bake. By the 3rd pizza, I had it right: baked on screen for 7 mins at 2nd to bottom rack, then transferred to stone at the bottom rack (wo/screen) for 4 mins.

The pizzas came out very good, the only thing I didn't like was the sandpaper like texture on the rim due to the dustinator clone - I used 50% BRM semolina and 50% bread flour; perhaps I need to use more bread flour next time.

I've ordered 14inch screens and my next try will be the recipe in reply 585. I will report back after that bake.

Thanks again everybody!

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1455 on: May 16, 2019, 10:31:43 AM »
yangmanning,

I think you did very well for initial attempts to replicate a Papa John's dough and pizza. And it is always a challenge to do so outside of the US where flours and other ingredients and ovens are different than those available in the US. You also selected the hardest one of the PJ clone dough recipes to make in a home refrigerator setting. So you are to be complimented on the results you achieved.

As for the Dustinator blend, the last listing of ingredients for that blend are set forth in Reply 493 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg260046#msg260046

As you will note, the blend also includes soybean oil, which you can replace with the grapeseed oil. I discussed the purpose of the oil at Reply 2584 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg438037#msg438037

You might try about 2-3% oil and see how that works out for you.

Peter

Offline exchicagogal

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1456 on: May 16, 2019, 12:09:54 PM »
I'll upload pictures at some point but thanks the steel worked beautifully, I used the parchment paper trick  ;).  Me and the BF liked it a lot. Crisp and chewy and also fluffy. It definitely reminded me of Papa John's.  The kicker for me was the KABF, it really helped create a beautiful dough.

I use a DoughJoe steel, which was definitely worth the investment. Pies have a completely different texture.

I find that the little things, like using a better bread flour or a baking steel really make a world of difference when making pizza(all things I learned on this forum), I appreciate all the advice Matt and Pete!

Now to make a better sauce! Any advice on that, I'm in the boonies now so I don't have access to 6-in-1 like before, any advice on a good crushed tomato that can be purchased at like Walmart or Costco or even on Amazon?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 12:19:24 PM by exchicagogal »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1457 on: May 16, 2019, 01:38:01 PM »
exchicagogal,

I'm happy to hear that using the steel/parchment method that Matt used worked out for you. Other members might also find that method helpful if they do not have a screen or stone.

As for the sauce, you might take a look at the post where I described using a Wal-Mart canned tomato product to make a clone of the pizza sauce used at the time by PJ:

Reply 30 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6633.msg59208#msg59208

Some members (for example, see the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36002.0) have reported that good crushed tomatoes can be found by looking for canned tomatoes with the code 5TPCG OL or something very similar. I don't know if that will help you but you may want to note it and check the codes of cans you find at the markets like Wal-Mart and Kroger.

Peter

Offline yangmanning

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1458 on: May 16, 2019, 08:56:54 PM »
Thanks Mr. Peter, I will try the grapeseed oil in the dustinator this next try.

Offline exchicagogal

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1459 on: May 19, 2019, 01:30:12 PM »
Here's the pictures from my bake, I didn't take any pictures of the bottom but it was done perfectly.


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