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Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 641501 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1480 on: January 08, 2020, 08:30:19 PM »
Never experienced any burning due to sugar

icemanxp300  has made many papa johns clones using steel that came out great

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg477391#msg477391
MadMatt,

Thank you for reminding us of icemanxp300's good results using a steel.

Peter

Offline hodgey1

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1481 on: January 13, 2020, 07:44:34 AM »
I am a longtime pizza maker and just purchased a new LG double oven range. I decided to give the new oven a test drive this weekend for my grandsons 7th birthday. I have been primarily only making pizza in the summers in my WFO, so my in the house oven skills are tarnished. Thinking I wanted to do something new and out of my typical Neo-NY style, I planned on using Pete-zza Papa John's clone recipe.

Everything turned Out great, except a mistake in using the convection portion of my new dual oven. The bottoms of the pizza were barely cooked, while the tops were perfectly cooked. I used 500*F at 8-9 minutes on a wire pizza screen. It came to me in the middle of the night that the lower convection oven does not have an element on the bottom and why the hardly baked bottoms. I mentioned this to my wife this morning, who pulled the owners manual out and read the portion that said to use the upper oven and not the convection :-[.

Besides that mistake, the pies turned out nice and everyone still enjoyed them even with white bottoms. Thanks Pete for all your work, I used the WMGV puree recipe for the sauce and really liked it!

Offline Dante3346

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1482 on: January 17, 2020, 02:31:43 PM »
Would i be able to use active dry yeast, vegetable oil, and a pizza stone to try to recreate the Papa John's Pizza

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1483 on: January 17, 2020, 02:50:39 PM »
Would i be able to use active dry yeast, vegetable oil, and a pizza stone to try to recreate the Papa John's Pizza
Dante3346,

Yes. If you choose to use ADY, you will want to use an amount that is equivalent to IDY in terms of performance. And you will need to prehydrate the ADY in a small amount of warm water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes before using in the recipe you select. As for the soybean oil, you can see at https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html that PJ's dough uses soybean oil, which is a form of vegetable oil, so you would be fine using soybean oil. As for using a pizza stone, several members have done so in trying to make PJ clone pizzas but care must be exercised because the PJ dough contains a lot of sugar and that increases the likelihood of the bottom of the crust browning too much and possibly burning when the pizza is baked on a hot pizza stone. If you search this thread (using the search box at the top right hand side of the page), using the expression pizza stone, you should find a lot of examples where members have used pizza stones.

Peter

Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1484 on: February 04, 2020, 05:00:02 AM »
Hi,

I have never made an American Style before and would like to try this at reply #20:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217

Can anyone help with adapting the above recipe to the following requirements?
  • Cold fermentation for 20 hours.
  • ADY instead of IDY.
  • Size reduced from 14" to 12".
Thanks!

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1485 on: February 04, 2020, 11:24:35 AM »
Hi,

I have never made an American Style before and would like to try this at reply #20:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217

Can anyone help with adapting the above recipe to the following requirements?
  • Cold fermentation for 20 hours.
  • ADY instead of IDY.
  • Size reduced from 14" to 12".
Thanks!
PentiumIIPizza,

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html with the information you provided, I came up with the dough formulation posted below for you to test. In doing so, I should also mention that I used the yeast chart at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0 (click to enlarge) to determine the amount of ADY to use if you plan to cold ferment the dough for 20 hours. In using the yeast chart, I assumed a fermentation temperature of 3 degrees C (38 degrees F), which is fairly typical of the temperature of a standard home refrigerator in the US. Should that differ in your case since you are in Denmark, you should feel free to modify the amount of ADY using the abovementioned yeast chart. Also, when using ADY, you will want to activate it in a small amount of the formula water at around 38 degrees C (100 degrees F) for about ten minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water. I am also assuming that you will be using a bread flour with a typical protein content of around 12.7%. If you do not have such a flour, you may want to adjust the hydration value of the dough formulation to be a bit lower if, for example, you plan to use an all purpose flour. Finally, you will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. So you should adjust the weight of the dough on a scale to achieve a final value of around 437 grams.

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
ADY (0.42%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.17%):
260.9 g  |  9.2 oz | 0.58 lbs
147.41 g  |  5.2 oz | 0.32 lbs
1.1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.05 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.19 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
10.96 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
443.97 g | 15.66 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
Note: The dough (437 grams) is for a single 12" pizza; the nominal thickness factor is 0.13642; the bowl residue compensation value is 1.5%.

I wish you luck if you decide to try the dough formulation posted above and feel free to report back on your results.

Peter

Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1486 on: February 18, 2020, 03:13:33 AM »
PentiumIIPizza,

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html with the information you provided, I came up with the dough formulation posted below for you to test. In doing so, I should also mention that I used the yeast chart at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0 (click to enlarge) to determine the amount of ADY to use if you plan to cold ferment the dough for 20 hours. In using the yeast chart, I assumed a fermentation temperature of 3 degrees C (38 degrees F), which is fairly typical of the temperature of a standard home refrigerator in the US. Should that differ in your case since you are in Denmark, you should feel free to modify the amount of ADY using the abovementioned yeast chart. Also, when using ADY, you will want to activate it in a small amount of the formula water at around 38 degrees C (100 degrees F) for about ten minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water. I am also assuming that you will be using a bread flour with a typical protein content of around 12.7%. If you do not have such a flour, you may want to adjust the hydration value of the dough formulation to be a bit lower if, for example, you plan to use an all purpose flour. Finally, you will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. So you should adjust the weight of the dough on a scale to achieve a final value of around 437 grams.

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
ADY (0.42%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.17%):
260.9 g  |  9.2 oz | 0.58 lbs
147.41 g  |  5.2 oz | 0.32 lbs
1.1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.05 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.19 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
10.96 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
443.97 g | 15.66 oz | 0.98 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
Note: The dough (437 grams) is for a single 12" pizza; the nominal thickness factor is 0.13642; the bowl residue compensation value is 1.5%.

I wish you luck if you decide to try the dough formulation posted above and feel free to report back on your results.

Peter

Pete-zza,

Thank your very much for the help.

I followed your instructions and the pizza(s) came out great. Soft and tender. I Immediately noticed the sweetness, which is something I'm not used to in a pizza, but the taste quickly grew on me as the sweetness combined with cheese and savoury pepperoni united into something special. I ended up eating two 12" pizzas, as I had made an extra batch of dough in case something went wrong during baking.

I don't own a pizza screen, but burning was not a problem in my case as the bottom of both pizzas ended up with a nice golden color.

In my previous post I wrote that I've never made an American Style pizza before, but that's not true as I have been working for six months perfecting a Pizza Hut pan pizza clone, getting a lot of help from this forum. I just thought of that as pan pizza, but this is of course also an American Style.

Online hammettjr

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1487 on: April 05, 2020, 08:17:53 PM »
Back in the late 90’s I was a big fan of PJ’s cheesesticks. I can’t imagine eating PJ without cheesesticks, but I also can’t imagine the cheesesticks without the pizza. I don’t need to make so much though, and this isn’t the time to be wasting cheese. So….

Here is Hammettjr’s Papa John’s Special.

Dough was 100% KASL, 56.5% water, 7.16% vegetable (soybean) oil, 4.8% sugar, 1.8% salt, 0.23% IDY. TF= 0.13. 24 hour CF.

Red sauce was taken from 1.25 cups of Jersey Fresh crushed that had been pushed through a strainer. 1.25 t sugar, 1/16 t salt, 1/2 t dried oregano, 1/8 t dried basil, ~1/64 t garlic powder, 1 t oil (half EVOO, half light olive).

Garlic sauce was 3/4 stick unsalted butter, 1 t EVOO, 1/16 t salt, 1/8 + 1/32 + 1/64 garlic powder.

Baked mostly on a screen that sat on a 500* stone (via pre-heat at 480*). Oven set to 535* at launch. 

The pictures will describe the construction.

I really like these cheesesticks. Dipped in extra sauce, like the old days. I liked the pizza too, but I think I missed the PJ mark. It tasted too much like my NY pizza, which isn’t totally surprising given it was the same cheese (9oz grande whole milk on the 14” pie) and a somewhat similar, albeit sweeter, sauce. Next time I’ll try to do a better job on the PJ sauce, reduce the sauce amount, and maybe reduce the bake temp a bit.

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1488 on: April 06, 2020, 09:42:29 AM »
Matt,

You did fine. If you want to get a further insight as to how PJ made its cheesesticks at the time I posted on this subject, see Reply 437 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg259592#msg259592

You might also check on Nate's (pythonic's) thread on how he made his PJ clone cheesesticks, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25603.msg258088#msg258088

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1489 on: April 23, 2020, 12:01:36 PM »
Hey,

Im trying to create your amazing Papa Johns pizza on a big scale for my takeaway.  Something well risen, airy, light and chewy!

Our methods whilst working, are currently non-scientific and haphazard and it is why I wish to standardise the method. 

Current Status
-   Using a conveyor belt oven set at 500 Fahrenheit
-   Using deep man plates

Objectives
-   To make a more chewy, golden, flavourful and well risen yet light deep pan pizza consistently.  Something akin to Papa Johns crust.
-   Happy to use specific additions from dough improvers (e.g. ascorbic acid + datem) to provide stability and consistency

Current Recipe/Preparation
-   Flour – all purpose white bread flour 1.8kg
-   Yeast (fresh) – 90g
-   Water (no defined temp) 1 litre
-   Oil – 100g
-   Salt - 25g
-   Sugar – 10g

The mixture goes into a dough mixing machine for an unset time – until all parts are well mixed.  It is removed in one large piece and placed on flour.  Cut up for 10” (280g) and 12” (380g) size pizzas. These balls are then rolled in a vertical dough machine (happy to add semolina here) and placed into the pizza pans that have been very lightly brushed with oil. We let them rise 1-2 hrs dependent on the room temp and then refrigerate for the next day.  They also do get used that same evening. This is due to staffing and logistical issues so we I would want the recipe to reflect the need for a quick-ish rise.

Few things to ask;
do you think a strong white flour and high gluten content would help?
do you think adding a dough improver would help?
ideally for longevity and to remove the 'yeast' taste I was thinking to move over to IDY. do you think this is a good idea and what proportions of IDY?

I hope this somewhat helps! I tried to be as informative as possible so you can pick apart and understand our process before advising.

As always and I am sure the whole forum feels this – THANKYOU.

Moneeb

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1490 on: April 23, 2020, 04:41:36 PM »
Mo,

Just about everything I have done in this thread is related to the Papa John's Original dough, and in the context of a standard home oven, and using a pizza screen. And although I do not have experience in a professional pizzeria setting, I tried to come as close as I could in replicating the PJ dough. My emphasis was mainly for a 14" (Large) pizza.

What you show as your current dough formulation looks to be workable for a pan application using either an all purpose flour or a bread flour. However, a traditional PJ Original dough has much less yeast, more salt, and a lot of sugar--far more sugar than what you are using. As a result, I am not sure that your dough formulation will have the characteristics of a PJ dough or pizza. But your questions prompted me to see if the dough used by PJ for its pan pizza is similar to that used for its Original dough. So, I went to the PJ website to see what I would find there. I was specifically looking to find the ingredients for the pan pizza that PJ introduced toward the end of 2016. Unfortunately, I could not find anything at the PJ website about the pan pizza from the standpoint of ingredients, which leads me to believe that PJ no longer offers that pizza or it is only offered as an occasional special. However, I did see the ingredients that supposedly were used to make the PJ pan pizza when it was introduced in 2016, at:

https://www.brandeating.com/2016/10/papa-john-launches-new-pan-pizza.html

As you will see from the above article, the pan pizza had the same ingredients as a PJ original dough, with the only difference that I could tell being the use of some extra virgin olive oil. Also, the only size offered was 12" (Medium).

But all is not lost. When I started to look at the PJ Nutritional Information, I did see a comparison of nutritional information between the original and pan crusts. For my purposes, I used a basic cheese pizza because it is the most basic pizza that PJ offers. The Nutritional Information I looked at is at:

https://www.papajohns.com/company/nutritional-details/index.html

What I found most interesting is that the pan crust cheese pizza nutrition information most closely mirrors the nutrition information for a 14" PJ Original cheese pizza. This leads me to believe that PJ used an amount of dough for its 12" pan pizza as used for a PJ 14" Original cheese pizza. However, there may be a few differences. For example, the PJ cheese pan pizza may be using a bit more fat (maybe the addition of extra virgin olive oil) than used for a PJ 14" Original cheese pizza, and also a bit less salt, less sugar, and maybe a lower protein flour. It is hard to be sure on these matters because PJ used a newer sauce for the pan pizza. And we don't know if both pizzas use the same types and amounts of cheese.

It used to be that PJ gave weights at its website of their pizzas (usually the weights of slices) but a few years ago PJ discontinued that practice. That makes it more difficult to analyze things.

I'm not sure if the above is of any help to you so you may have to play around with your ingredient amounts if you wish to simulate some of the characteristics of the PJ pizzas. As for your use of IDY instead of fresh yeast, you would use about a third of the weight of the fresh yeast.

Peter


Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1491 on: April 24, 2020, 04:43:56 AM »
Hey Peter,

Thank you for getting back and providing those links! I do apologise for the misunderstanding in my last post as it is your Papa John's Original dough you made in this thread that I am trying to integrate into our own dough recipe.  Of course scaling the numbers up and preparation might be a little different.

My current recipe is below;
- Flour – all purpose white bread flour 1.8kg
- Yeast (fresh) – 90g
- Water (no defined temp) 1 litre
- Oil – 100g
- Salt - 25g
- Sugar – 10g

I have somewhat attempted to change the above and wished to ask if they seemed more conducive of your recipe;
- Strong white flour (high gluten) - 100%
- Yeast IDY - 5%
- Water 55% at 18C
- Oil - 100g (10%)
- Salt - 2%
- Sugar - 3%

As mentioned before due to the way we manage the dough (mix the ingredients, make into balls, roll and place into the pan for rising initially for 2 hrs and then refrigerated overnight) raising the temp of the water is to allow for a rise in the pans for 1-2hr before being refrigerated.
Does this feel more akin to your recipe and do you see any gaping holes to refine here in the ingredients?

Thankyou and Best wishes,

Moneeb


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1492 on: April 24, 2020, 11:17:19 AM »
Mo,

When I first started making clones of the PJ Original dough, I noted from information that I received from PJ that there was more sugar in their dough than oil. However, I couldn't be sure that the information was correct (it was not public information as required by law) and I could not resolve the matter through analysis. But later I got confirmation from a PJ employee that there was in fact more sugar in their dough than oil. And my research also led me to conclude that there was more salt than I originally thought. All of this eventually led me to the dough formulation as set forth at Reply 585 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667

You should note that the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 585 is not one used by PJ itself. It is my adaptation for a dough that can be cold fermented for two or three days, using different amounts of yeast for those two or three days.

To adapt the dough formulation of Reply 585 to your proposed application, I would tend to use a fair amount of sugar, as shown in Reply 585, and less oil. As for the yeast, when I once made a PJ clone dough formulation for a dough that was to be cold fermented for one day I used only 0.40% IDY, which is equivalent to 1.2% fresh yeast. You can see the relevant post at Reply 31 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076. I realize that you intend to use a different dough management method than I used but it is hard to say how much fresh yeast is the ideal and proper amount for you to use. It is very common to use an above average amount of yeast and a warmer water but that is usually done for a so-called "emergency" dough that is intended to be used within a matter of hours after making the dough. There is typically no subsequent cold fermentation. However, some professionals use proofing equipment to warm up a dough such as a pan dough before cold fermenting. That may avoid using warm water instead.

What you may want to do is look at some of the dough formulations on the forum that are for pan pizzas and see if that helps. For example, see Reply 7 at: 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2906.msg25146#msg25146, and also Reply 6 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909.

Another useful thread may be this one:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4067.msg33930#msg33930

Whatever you do, you will want to determine how much dough you plan to use for the intended pizza size and adapt the amounts of ingredients to use for your application, such as by using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html.

Peter

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1493 on: April 24, 2020, 12:18:09 PM »
Hey Peter,

I have used a the variety of sources you have provided to come up with an overall ingredient/% list.  I shall be in touch next week and post some images of the results!

Thankyou

Moneeb

Offline ahmad213

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1494 on: April 28, 2020, 06:29:16 AM »
Hey Peter,

So I extrapolated our ingredient list and made the first revised batch yesterday. The dough came out certainly more tasty but lacked the fluffy, risen and airy aspect to the crust we are hoping for.  Also I believe the sugar may have browned the dough a tad too much?

Below is the ingredient list and some pictures to accompany.

1.8kg strong white flour (100%)
Fresh Yeast – 40 gram (2.2%)
Water – 1.1 litre luke warm (61%)
Oil – 100g (5.55%)
Salt – 36g (2%)
Sugar – 65g (3.61%)   

Semolina/white flour dust to coat but it did not stick for some reason!
This was made after a 2-3hr rise of the dough in the pans before cooking.

Any thoughts or tips you could provide to improve would be kindly appreciated.

Best wishes,

Moneeb





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Offline brijaco

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1495 on: May 02, 2020, 04:21:03 PM »
When taking the dough out of the fridge do you do a final shaping? As in forming the dough into a ball before stretching or do you just leave it in the bowl it rose in to come to room temp and then stretch as is

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1496 on: May 02, 2020, 09:29:20 PM »
When taking the dough out of the fridge do you do a final shaping? As in forming the dough into a ball before stretching or do you just leave it in the bowl it rose in to come to room temp and then stretch as is
no no no final shaping.... That creates snap back... When you try to stretch your dough out it will act like a rubber band.

Well, you can try to shape it a little but lord have mercy don't you reball it.... ;)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 09:36:06 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1497 on: May 03, 2020, 09:24:25 AM »
When taking the dough out of the fridge do you do a final shaping? As in forming the dough into a ball before stretching or do you just leave it in the bowl it rose in to come to room temp and then stretch as is
brijaco,

My practice with a typical PJ clone dough was to lightly oil the dough ball before putting it into a storage container, to keep the top of the dough ball from getting dry. I also lightly oiled the storage container, to allow easy removal at the time of use of the dough ball. When removing the dough ball from the refrigerator, I would remove it from the container and put it on a floured surface (I used a Dustinator bench flour clone) and let it warm up. On other occasions, I just left the dough ball in the storage container to warm up.

I never reballed the dough balls for the reason that Chicago Bob mentioned. Also, I let the dough balls warm up until the interior temperature was around 60-65 degrees F (professionals use around 50-55 degrees F). If the dough balls are allowed to warm up TO room temperature, that may overheat the dough balls if the room temperature is on the high side (as it can be in summer where I live in Texas). So, warming the dough to room temperature is a no-no. To measure the internal temperature of a dough ball, you should use a stem type thermometer, not an infrared unit that will only measure the surface temperature.

Peter

Offline brijaco

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1498 on: May 03, 2020, 10:51:40 AM »
brijaco,

My practice with a typical PJ clone dough was to lightly oil the dough ball before putting it into a storage container, to keep the top of the dough ball from getting dry. I also lightly oiled the storage container, to allow easy removal at the time of use of the dough ball. When removing the dough ball from the refrigerator, I would remove it from the container and put it on a floured surface (I used a Dustinator bench flour clone) and let it warm up. On other occasions, I just left the dough ball in the storage container to warm up.

I never reballed the dough balls for the reason that Chicago Bob mentioned. Also, I let the dough balls warm up until the interior temperature was around 60-65 degrees F (professionals use around 50-55 degrees F). If the dough balls are allowed to warm up TO room temperature, that may overheat the dough balls if the room temperature is on the high side (as it can be in summer where I live in Texas). So, warming the dough to room temperature is a no-no. To measure the internal temperature of a dough ball, you should use a stem type thermometer, not an infrared unit that will only measure the surface temperature.

Peter

Ah well that explains why it's always such a pain to stretch out my dough, I've been reshaping the dough and letting it sit out for two hours to come to room temp haha. Thanks for the info, making my pizza tomorrow so hopefully it'll be smooth sailings this time

Offline djTaroBaap

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1499 on: May 13, 2020, 03:00:55 AM »
Today, one of our members, sodface (Carl), was nice enough to give me a link to a Papa John's Operations Manual. I am always interested in such documents to confirm what I have done in the way of reverse engineering and cloning pizzas. The link to that document is:

https://www.singlestorefront.com/papajohns/Thumbnail/Asset/CTDAR_VT_PJ_20551

...

Was anyone able to save the document from here? Looks like you now need to login to see the doc   ::)

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