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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #900 on: January 31, 2018, 05:38:53 AM »
No problems with the dough springing back.  Use the Detroit style dough and press out cold then proof.

Norma, I'm getting close to the crust that I've been looking for, trying to replicate some local bar pizzas, but the springback is kind of an issue for me as well.  Is the solution in the creation process, or is it also in the recipe?
--pat--

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #901 on: January 31, 2018, 08:07:27 AM »
Norma, I'm getting close to the crust that I've been looking for, trying to replicate some local bar pizzas, but the springback is kind of an issue for me as well.  Is the solution in the creation process, or is it also in the recipe?

Pat,

Glad to hear you are getting close to the crust you want.  I really can't answer your question about the springback kind of being an issue for you, in creating some local bar style pizzas.  What hydration are you using and how do you put the doughs in your pans?  All I can say is when playing around with Detroit style pizzas I had more of a springback issue when using oil to grease those square pans.  When trying to make bar style pizzas (Star Tavern) had more of problem when using oil too unless the dough was stretched right before being placed in the pan.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #902 on: January 31, 2018, 08:29:59 AM »
A few of the pan pizzas made yesterday.  The dough can be proofed for a long while and is good after applying ingredients.

Norma

Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #903 on: January 31, 2018, 08:43:37 AM »
Thanks, Norma.

I've had so many problems with this type of pizza that it's been slow conquering them all.  I'm pretty sure I've got the sauce very close.  On last week's pizza, I used Cracker Barrel cheddar (not sharp), and it was terrific.  As much as I love the flavor of Cabot Vermont cheddar, it's just not working out for pizza.  I'll keep buying it for nachos, tacos, mac 'n' cheese, etc., but I'm going to switch over to Cracker Barrel for pizzas.

So on last week's pizza, I thought that everything above the crust was very near to perfect.  I used my daily bread dough for the crust, and while it was ok, it wasn't what I was looking for.  I'm trying for more of a light biscuity texture.  Per Scott r's recommendation, I added milk and oil.  Last night's crust's texture was very good, but part of the crust was paper thin, and part was 3/4" thick (after bake).  I need to improve my method.

Here's my most recent dough recipe (makes 2 one-pound dough balls):

113g milk
227g water (nuke the combined liquids to 90F)
70g olive oil
4g IDY
560g KABF
24g sugar
11g kosher salt

I'm honestly not sure how the oil figures into the hydration.  Taking it out of the equation, we're about 60%.  If it's considered liquid, we're more like 73%.  Kneading it, it sure felt closer to 70 than 60.  I might back off the hydration a tad.

Per my request, you kindly posted a video of you putting your dough into a pan.  Your dough looked to be a lot more cooperative than mine.  I make so many changes from pizza to pizza, and I honestly don't remember what dough recipe I was using at the time, but when I did it, it refused to extend to the edges.  I'd stretch the E-W corners to the edges, but when I'd then work on the N-S corners, the E-W sections would snap back to the center.  Herding cats comes to mind.  So I'd stretch it as best I could and ultimately leave it to relax for an hour and then give it another try.  After a few sessions, I could get it to remain in position, but now it's almost time to make the pizza, and it doesn't have time to rise.

Last night, per someone else's idea, I tried rolling out out, laying it over the pan and cutting off the excess.  This sort of worked, but I still had the problem of it being thin in one area and thick in another.  So I'd like to go back to your method of spreading it by hand.

FWIW, my dough making process is to mix all ingredients except for the salt, let it autolyse for 30 min, add the salt and knead in a stand mixer (speed 2) for 5 minutes.  Bulk ferment in a covered oiled bowl for 1 hour.  Then I spread it into this takeout container that I have.  It's round plastic, about 8" across and covered.  I oil the bottom and spread it out into this as evenly as possible.  Let it rest an hour and then I'm ready to put it into the oiled pan.  Once I have all the other issues worked out, I'd like to incorporate a preferment into the process to add to the taste.

There was a time I was having a lot of trouble with this massive pocket of air that was forming under the crust during the bake. You probably remember that.  I've started spraying the bottom with olive oil, and this seems to have corrected that.

Well, THIS certainly turned into a longer post than I intended, but maybe you can see something in my methods that need correcting.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:49:50 AM by enchant »
--pat--

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #904 on: January 31, 2018, 09:06:36 AM »
Thanks, Norma.

I've had so many problems with this type of pizza that it's been slow conquering them all.  I'm pretty sure I've got the sauce very close.  On last week's pizza, I used Cracker Barrel cheddar (not sharp), and it was terrific.  As much as I love the flavor of Cabot Vermont cheddar, it's just not working out for pizza.  I'll keep buying it for nachos, tacos, mac 'n' cheese, etc., but I'm going to switch over to Cracker Barrel for pizzas.

So on last week's pizza, I thought that everything above the crust was very near to perfect.  I used my daily bread dough for the crust, and while it was ok, it wasn't what I was looking for.  I'm trying for more of a light biscuity texture.  Per Scott r's recommendation, I added milk and oil.  Last night's crust's texture was very good, but part of the crust was paper thin, and part was 3/4" thick (after bake).  I need to improve my method.

Here's my most recent dough recipe (makes 2 one-pound dough balls):

113g milk
227g water (nuke the combined liquids to 90F)
70g olive oil
4g IDY
560g KABF
24g sugar
11g kosher salt

I'm honestly not sure how the oil figures into the hydration.  Taking it out of the equation, we're about 60%.  If it's considered liquid, we're more like 73%.  Kneading it, it sure felt closer to 70 than 60.  I might back off the hydration a tad.

Per my request, you kindly posted a video of you putting your dough into a pan.  Your dough looked to be a lot more cooperative than mine.  I make so many changes from pizza to pizza, and I honestly don't remember what dough recipe I was using at the time, but when I did it, it refused to extend to the edges.  I'd stretch the E-W corners to the edges, but when I'd then work on the N-S corners, the E-W sections would snap back to the center.  Herding cats comes to mind.  So I'd stretch it as best I could and ultimately leave it to relax for an hour and then give it another try.  After a few sessions, I could get it to remain in position, but now it's almost time to make the pizza, and it doesn't have time to rise.

Last night, per someone else's idea, I tried rolling out out, laying it over the pan and cutting off the excess.  This sort of worked, but I still had the problem of it being thin in one area and thick in another.  So I'd like to go back to your method of spreading it by hand.

FWIW, my dough making process is to mix all ingredients except for the salt, let it autolyse for 30 min, add the salt and knead in a stand mixer (speed 2) for 5 minutes.  Bulk ferment in a covered oiled bowl for 1 hour.  Then I spread it into this takeout container that I have.  It's round plastic, about 8" across and covered.  I oil the bottom and spread it out into this as evenly as possible.  Let it rest an hour and then I'm ready to put it into the oiled pan.  Once I have all the other issues worked out, I'd like to incorporate a preferment into the process to add to the taste.

There was a time I was having a lot of trouble with this massive pocket of air that was forming under the crust during the bake. You probably remember that.  I've started spraying the bottom with olive oil, and this seems to have corrected that.

Well, THIS certainly turned into a longer post than I intended, but maybe you can see something in my methods that need correcting.

Pat,

I am not good at figuring out the hydration when oil is added.  Know the oil can up the hydration but can't ever figure out how much.  Know oil isn't equal to oil in is adding up the hydration. Maybe Scott r can give you more helpful tips on how bar style pizzeria are stretched out before putting them in the pan.  Would think the dough would need to be fairly uniform in height before the proofing.  Did you ever try Frank Giaquinto's method of opening the dough with oil/olive oil and then putting it in your pan?  I tried Frank's method of opening with oil for some Sicilian pizzas and it worked well to get almost uniform surface area all around.  That was with the normal dough recipe that is used for round market pies. 

Don't really have any idea what you dough feels like after you do the autolyse and then add the salt and knead for 5 mintues.  Not sure if it then feels elastic or not, or if the dough feels soft. 

I recall you were having trouble with some massive pockets of air forming under the crust during the bake.  Glad to hear you have resolved that. 

Do you proof the dough in the pan at all before baking?

If you want me to could post another video of trying to put the dough, that is used for round pizzas at market, into the round pan that I now use.  Would use Frank's method to stretch the dough.  Would also oil the pan instead of using Crisco to grease the pan.

Norma

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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #905 on: January 31, 2018, 09:18:22 AM »
Do you proof the dough in the pan at all before baking?

I just recently started doing that.  That was my plan on the last few bakes, but I had such a devil of a time getting it fully stretched out that by time I was done, there wasn't enough time left before dinner time.  Yesterday, I rolled it out onto the counter and it stuck in place.  I left it there for an hour with the pan covering it to keep it from drying out.  Then I cut it to fit inside the pan and let it proof for 2 hours.  We were very happy with the texture of the crust after this.

Quote
If you want me to could post another video of trying to put the dough, that is used for round pizzas at market, into the round pan that I now use.  Would use Frank's method to stretch the dough.  Would also oil the pan instead of using Crisco to grease the pan.

Thanks, Norma.  I really don't want to give you any more work that I need to.  You've been a great help, but I know that you've got plenty to do running your pizza business.

I *am* familiar with opening the dough on an oily surface.  I think I tried it once, but several other things went awry and I don't know that it was a fair test.  I'll give that another try.  I might just try some test preparations without actually making a pizza. Dough is cheap to make, and maybe that would allow me to develop my dough spreading chops some.
--pat--

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #906 on: January 31, 2018, 09:30:19 AM »
I just recently started doing that.  That was my plan on the last few bakes, but I had such a devil of a time getting it fully stretched out that by time I was done, there wasn't enough time left before dinner time.  Yesterday, I rolled it out onto the counter and it stuck in place.  I left it there for an hour with the pan covering it to keep it from drying out.  Then I cut it to fit inside the pan and let it proof for 2 hours.  We were very happy with the texture of the crust after this.

Thanks, Norma.  I really don't want to give you any more work that I need to.  You've been a great help, but I know that you've got plenty to do running your pizza business.

I *am* familiar with opening the dough on an oily surface.  I think I tried it once, but several other things went awry and I don't know that it was a fair test.  I'll give that another try.  I might just try some test preparations without actually making a pizza. Dough is cheap to make, and maybe that would allow me to develop my dough spreading chops some.

Pat,

Think if you get the stretching part worked out, so there isn't a lot of stretch back, and then proof to the desired height you want, you will do fine. 

Your idea to try some test preparations with the dough without actually making a pizza is good.  Good luck in developing your dough spreading chops some more.  :)

Norma

Offline fewd

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #907 on: February 14, 2018, 07:20:28 PM »
Hey All!  I'm a die hard South Shore Bar Pizza (or New England) lover.  Lynwood Cafe being my favorite...but I'd also take Amvets, Town Spa, Cape Cod Cafe, Poopsies (and the list goes on) if need be. 

I'm a long time lurker here.  I'm going to be taking a shot at the recipe in the coming days and will be happy to contribute.  But I thought I'd throw some pieces out there that I was told by a friend who worked there 10 years ago. Of course at that time I lived right by Lynwood and had no reason to try and recreate the recipe.  So I didn't retain things as well as I should have (might have to reach back out).   Now that I'm on the West Coast I dream about it and want to take a shot at it...

Unfortunately some of it contradicts other information I've read here and around the internet.  I'm sure we will find the recipe to be somewhere in between. 


Lynwood (tidbits I remember)
- The dough recipe has equal parts sugar and salt
- there is definitely butter in the dough recipe.  you can actually taste this when eating the pizza. and it has a biscuit like quality.  so makes sense.
- straight water, no mention of milk at all
- the pan is definitely oiled
- the whole peeled tomatoes come straight from Sysco.  Their private label.
- there are 5 cheeses used.  mozzarella and the other 4 are a mix of different yellow and white cheddars
- she thought the cheese blend was somewhere around 3:1 cheddar blend over mozzarella


sidenote: I'm actually friendly with the owner Stephan and I'm tempted to just ask him directly next time I visit Boston.  But that kind of takes away the magic and the fun.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:26:56 PM by fewd »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #908 on: February 14, 2018, 08:18:35 PM »
Hey All!  I'm a die hard South Shore Bar Pizza (or New England) lover.....
sidenote: I'm actually friendly with the owner Stephan and I'm tempted to just ask him directly next time I visit Boston.  But that kind of takes away the magic and the fun.

Welcome! I look forward to seeing your efforts.

If you have the opportunity to get information from the owner, don't hesitate.  Even if you were able to source the exact ingredients, which would be a challenge, there will still be plenty of fun (and work) to get the final product you're looking for.
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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #909 on: February 15, 2018, 07:33:57 AM »
sidenote: I'm actually friendly with the owner Stephan and I'm tempted to just ask him directly next time I visit Boston.  But that kind of takes away the magic and the fun.

Hey, screw that noise.  Get the deets!  Fun is overrated.  Good God, man - you live in California.  Plenty of other places to find fun.

Welcome from a former neighbor.  I live about as far from Poopsies as you did from Lynwood.  I dated a girl from Randolph for a few years and the relationship survived purely on our regular Thursday night visits to Lynwood and Amvets.

I'm currently on hiatus from my bar pizza project while my wife determines if gluten is contributing to her sinus pressure issues.  I thought I was getting closer to the Lynwood crust when I added some milk to the recipe.  I'll probably stick with it and work on some of the other factors.  Five cheeses???  Ulch. 

Bring Stephan a nice gift next next time your out on this coast.  Get him drunk and bring a note pad.
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #910 on: June 24, 2018, 05:41:34 PM »
While on my way up to Maine, we stopped at "New England Pizza" in Vernon Connecticut and had fantastic pizza. All elements were terrific with a unique crust and nice cheddar, and the sauce was really special. My wife (a native NYer, but not a pizza fanatic) agreed - she though the pizza overall and sauce was outstanding, which helps towards confirming that my review isn't totally biased having grown up on the style.

The pizza was fairly similar to what I had at Hope Pizza in Stamford, though I definitely preferred this one. Link to my post about Hope:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg510074#msg510074

Crust flavor and texture - Like Hope Pizza, it was so different than NY style. It had a light crisp and butteryness from the pan, but a light and dry-but-not-dry structure. The best description I came up with before was biscuit-like, which is still the best way I can describe it. The undercrust color was inconsistent, but even the lighter slices had a bit of crisp. I need to try adding eggs (and maybe milk) to my dough. I typically don't eat the rim crust, but I eagerly ate this one. Not a crumb was going to be left over.

Crust thickness - It was stretched inconsistently with some of the side (rectangle pieces) fairly thick. This was pillowy and awesome. Other areas were thinner, particularly the center pieces. The center also had a more pronounced gum line. I love these center slices, they are so rich.

Sauce - It was fairly thin and wet. It was herby, but didn't scream any one flavor, but did scream awesome. It came out and stayed piping hot. The pan pizza appeared to be baked in a conveyor style oven. I need to try a thinner sauce on this style, maybe mixing in some strained 7/11 into my diluted heavy sauce.

Cheese - clearly had some cheddar, but it wasn't overwhelming. The melt was beautiful. It had some browning, but was also white at the same time. Done right, not dried out or overbaked.

Size - I didn't study it at the time, but the pie was clearly smaller than the cardboard disc it's served on. I'd guess it was 15", maybe slightly smaller than that.

This pizza was very inspiring and I'll have to bake a Greek pie very soon. I'll try to let the pics tell the story, but they really do not do this pie justice.
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 06:14:49 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #911 on: June 24, 2018, 05:41:57 PM »
More Pics
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 05:44:04 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #912 on: June 24, 2018, 05:42:10 PM »
The Last Pics
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 05:49:54 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #913 on: June 26, 2018, 08:26:57 AM »
I'm sure this is simply personal preference, but I don't understand why places cut round pizzas into square pieces.  With normal wedges, every piece has a dry handle.  With squares, you're forced to stick your fingers into the gooey stuff or use a knife and fork (which is simply wrong).
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Offline HBolte

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #914 on: June 26, 2018, 08:49:04 AM »
Here in the midwest it would just seem wrong to cut a thin crust pizza into wedges. I sure prefer the party cut.

http://encyclopizzeria.com/pizzology/technique/6-reasons-square-cut-pizza-is-the-best-cut-pizza/
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #915 on: June 26, 2018, 10:23:34 PM »
I'm sure this is simply personal preference, but I don't understand why places cut round pizzas into square pieces.  With normal wedges, every piece has a dry handle.  With squares, you're forced to stick your fingers into the gooey stuff or use a knife and fork (which is simply wrong).

Hans, any particular reason why you prefer the party cut?

Pat, The greek pizza I grew up with was always cut in squares (party cut). Most people I knew thought as you did, and avoided the center squares as they didnt want to get their hands dirty. That worked great for me, as I recognized that the center of the pie is pure decadence. In a triangle cut pie, you only get half a bite of the greasy, spongy center per slice, though the party cut gives you full slices of it. (Unfortunately my 5 year old daughter seems to have figured it out and fights me for the center slices now). In addition to the center pieces, I like the party cut for nostalgia.

Below is a description someone provided earlier in the thread of the center squares.

...They were square cut, and the four big squares in the center of a large were affectionately known as "the sponge". A large would feed four, and each person would get two little triangles of 80% crust, a couple of side pieces that were pretty normal...and then one piece of the spongy, oily, delicious middle. Sinful.
...

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #916 on: July 01, 2018, 06:17:13 PM »
Inspired by my pizzeria visit chronicled a few posts above, I decided to make a Greek pie with loads of changes from my usual. Almost all aspects had changes, except the cheese.

Dough: I tried adding egg, more oil (and a blend of vegetable and olive) and reduced water. It was good, but it was still fairly dense. Nothing like the biscuity nature of the pizzeria crust. Next time I'll try opening the dough by hand instead of using a rolling pin (was trying to replicate a sheeter) and maybe let it rise in the pan longer than usual.
100% KAHG, 51% Water, 3.1% Egg, 5% Vegetable Oil, 1% EVOO, 1.9% Sugar, 1.75% Salt, 0.26% IDY.

Sauce: I tried adding strained 7/11 to my Bonta (paste) and water. I liked that it was thinner, but don't think the 7/11 is right. Next time I'll just add more water to the Bonta. The flavor was weak compared to the pizzeria. May need more herbs, and/or other changes.

Cheese: usual blend of cheddar and mozz. The melt with the reduced bake time (see below) was fine. Not noteworthy either way.

Pan and Bake: I lined the pan with Ghee (clarified butter), put the stone on the very bottom rack, and heated it to 515 degrees. The pie baked for 12:45 (versus my usual 15:30) with oven temp set to 460. I also only let it rest for 1 minute before putting it on the cardboard and slicing it. While steam went through the cardboard, it didn't mess up the undercrust, which came out really nice.

This was the most consistent undercrust I've made in the pan. I think it was the Ghee, which is basically solid and I'm assuming therefore is somewhat like Crisco. I couldn't taste it, nor was the undercrust oily, but a nice browning. Next time I'll increase the Ghee as any flavor it adds can only be good.

TLDR: Good pie, but next time need to get the crust less dense, the sauce more rich, and the undercrust a bit buttery.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 09:09:42 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #917 on: August 31, 2018, 02:48:33 PM »
This is a nice video, just posted


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