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Author Topic: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.  (Read 2102 times)

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Offline rparker

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 10:23:33 AM »
Right, that's because the pizza is within long cold fermentation.  Within a same day RT, the mix is crucial.
Harry,
I saw this comment the other day and scoffed it off as yet another one of the blanket statements that get offered up around here as being expertise rather than rhetoric. It occurred to me just this morning that a disconnect exists with some folks' thinking on CF.

Yes, a CF can do it's own brand of construction. Under-mix and let nature do the rest. I tried this method for a long time and despised it. It was weak for what I like in a NY Style crust. Again, this is as far as my efforts were concerned. What I eventually learned was that the CF dough might be smarter than we think. It finishes building gluten as it ferments. Sure. Agreed. BUT, it can do so much more. It can condition dough that is mixed to perfection. The mix that is crucial for a same-day is also crucial for a CF. One has to mix it strong effectively enough to withstand the rigors of CF to survive the process with a desired texture. 

The texture will change. It is not a given nor a default result. It has to be managed via mix and handling protocols just like any other system. There is a lot of balance involved. Everything you or anyone has ever mentioned about the negative effects of CF are not prohibitive. They are points that need to be managed. CF toughens gluten? Make sure you send it into CF with enough activity to counter that action. CF degenerates gluten? Send it in with enough food, including gluten, to have enough left over to give you your desired texture afterwards. Don't like sour dough? Don't use natural preferment, and/or don't go so long in CF and/or don't let the dough's yeast get to desperate enough measures to eat away the starches in gluten for so all that chemical chain reaction fermentation byproduct to take over. These are just a few examples of things one can control.

This does not mean to say that CF is the sole proper way to do it. All's I mean to say is that it is not an absolute that CF is improper. Done well, a great RT dough develops very nice flavor. I can link that flavor to a great 2-3 day CF flavor. No, it's not the same, of course, but it can be in the same neighborhood. On a personal note, all's I aim for is a significant increase in that wheaty flavor profile. I really do not care if it is enhanced by malt or CF or both. I just require it be there. How I get there is a matter of need. 

Anyhow, circling back to why I am posting this to begin with. All of the requirements of a great NY dough is possible with CF, but it requires a great mixing job to happen. I do bakes at 5 hours or 5 days from the same batch of dough. The mix is that good. Minor changes in dough handling takes care of the rest. To that end, I suggest that a great NY Style done with CF needs a great mix just like a RT attempt. It is equally as crucial. if I let CF build my gluten, I've lost. The goal is to diminish CF to a flavoring and convenience tool.

To the OP - sorry about the branch off in your thread. I am glad you found a mixer you can get along with. I had to come up with a massive regimen to replicate a NY Style Pizzeria dough with my KA 600. Sometimes the last 10-20% takes more effort than we like, and that happened to me. Not giving it up, though.  :chef:     

Roy

Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 05:33:56 PM »
I agree, proper mixing and gluten development is crucial to NY pizza.  Within a larger Hobart mixer, filling the bowl near rim also produces a much better product than a smaller batch rolling around.  A good NY dough will feel like a softer playdough and cutting the bulk will reveal small holes.

This is great information. That is exactly how it feels. I will have to get some pictures of the cut dough next time.

Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2017, 05:39:18 PM »
Harry,
I saw this comment the other day and scoffed it off as yet another one of the blanket statements that get offered up around here as being expertise rather than rhetoric. It occurred to me just this morning that a disconnect exists with some folks' thinking on CF.

Yes, a CF can do it's own brand of construction. Under-mix and let nature do the rest. I tried this method for a long time and despised it. It was weak for what I like in a NY Style crust. Again, this is as far as my efforts were concerned. What I eventually learned was that the CF dough might be smarter than we think. It finishes building gluten as it ferments. Sure. Agreed. BUT, it can do so much more. It can condition dough that is mixed to perfection. The mix that is crucial for a same-day is also crucial for a CF. One has to mix it strong effectively enough to withstand the rigors of CF to survive the process with a desired texture. 

The texture will change. It is not a given nor a default result. It has to be managed via mix and handling protocols just like any other system. There is a lot of balance involved. Everything you or anyone has ever mentioned about the negative effects of CF are not prohibitive. They are points that need to be managed. CF toughens gluten? Make sure you send it into CF with enough activity to counter that action. CF degenerates gluten? Send it in with enough food, including gluten, to have enough left over to give you your desired texture afterwards. Don't like sour dough? Don't use natural preferment, and/or don't go so long in CF and/or don't let the dough's yeast get to desperate enough measures to eat away the starches in gluten for so all that chemical chain reaction fermentation byproduct to take over. These are just a few examples of things one can control.

This does not mean to say that CF is the sole proper way to do it. All's I mean to say is that it is not an absolute that CF is improper. Done well, a great RT dough develops very nice flavor. I can link that flavor to a great 2-3 day CF flavor. No, it's not the same, of course, but it can be in the same neighborhood. On a personal note, all's I aim for is a significant increase in that wheaty flavor profile. I really do not care if it is enhanced by malt or CF or both. I just require it be there. How I get there is a matter of need. 

Anyhow, circling back to why I am posting this to begin with. All of the requirements of a great NY dough is possible with CF, but it requires a great mixing job to happen. I do bakes at 5 hours or 5 days from the same batch of dough. The mix is that good. Minor changes in dough handling takes care of the rest. To that end, I suggest that a great NY Style done with CF needs a great mix just like a RT attempt. It is equally as crucial. if I let CF build my gluten, I've lost. The goal is to diminish CF to a flavoring and convenience tool.

To the OP - sorry about the branch off in your thread. I am glad you found a mixer you can get along with. I had to come up with a massive regimen to replicate a NY Style Pizzeria dough with my KA 600. Sometimes the last 10-20% takes more effort than we like, and that happened to me. Not giving it up, though.  :chef:     

Roy

All of this derailment is great discussion and seems somewhat pertinent as my next post might show.

Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2017, 05:50:26 PM »
So I decided I couldn't leave well enough alone. I have a lovely Ischia starter that I use for Neapolitan style pizzas and I love the flavor it gives so I figured I should try that with this dough. I adopted my Neapolitan ferment schedule too and removed the LDMP from the dough. I think next time I will do a test to compare LDMP vs no LDMP but otherwise this crust was superb. RT fermented in bulk for roughly 12 hours then another 8 ish in balls.

The flavor to my taste was better than with the IDY by a not insignificant margin. As a second data point, the wife (and fellow pizza adventurer) took a bite and the look of joy told me everything I needed to know. This crust was incredibly crispy and had the great crunch sound while also having great structure and chew.

The recipe:
Water         64.0%
Kosher Salt   2.5%
Sugar           1%
EVOO           3%
Ischia Starter     3%   (My starter is 100% hydration and the flour and water weights are factored into the overalls for the flour and water components)

Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2017, 06:03:33 PM »
That does seem to be the consensus, which is why I've always used the roller and scraper.  I've never even tried the dough hook, which sort of bugs me.   I'm sort of surprised that 6 minutes yielded such good results, I usually go double that before I think it looks and feels good, though your hydration is a few points higher than I typically use so maybe that's a factor.

I'd be interested in a start to finish mixing video if you ever feel inclined, just as a sanity check.  There aren't a whole lot of ankarsrum videos on youtube that I've found especially helpful.

I could definitely get a video at some point in the future. I will say on these last ones, I ran the mixer a bit longer. Probably closer to the 8-9 minute mark.

I think one of the takeaways from this thread in general is that a mixer of sufficient quality is pretty critical to NY style pizza. Working the hi-gluten flours by hand into a suitably developed dough is just entirely too much work than I was ever interested in apparently. I think a KA or Bosch or Ankarsrum could all be made to work although I am currently ecstatic with the Ankarsrum.

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2017, 03:19:47 PM »
I have been using a Kitchen Aid but it's a little too small for some of the dough batches I have made recently.
I was looking at a Hobart N50. Nice but $$$
https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food-prep/mixers/n50-5-quart-mixer
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 04:57:48 PM »
I have been using a Kitchen Aid but it's a little too small for some of the dough batches I have made recently.
I was looking at a Hobart N50. Nice but $$$
https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food-prep/mixers/n50-5-quart-mixer

How big of batches are you aiming for?

Offline Randy

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2018, 07:44:05 AM »
RT and CF will produce different crust profile . . .

My secret decoder ring failed to decrypt this.  :D

RT is?
CF is?
 

Offline norcoscia

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2018, 07:48:35 AM »
Bookmark this link

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

common abbreviations used on the forum

CF: Cold ferment or cold fermentation

RT: Room temperature; also, Round Table (a pizza chain)
Norm

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2018, 08:08:42 AM »
How big of batches are you aiming for?

I would like to make dough for 4-6 18" pies. This Hobart is rumored to be the original Kitchen Aid. I really don't need something like this but if I can find one at a good price I might but one.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2018, 10:45:30 AM »
I had some fun Saturday morning with some pies for brunch. Been tweaking my dough recipe to try to get KABF to where I want. I ran out of All-Trumps and haven't reordered yet due to being frustrated paying so much for flour. This crust was phenomenal although in a perfect world I would love just a tiny pinch more oven rise on the outer rim. I think I am going to let it ferment just a little more for the next round. The crust had an amazing crunch on the outside and great chew though.

Dough recipe:
Flour       100%
Water   66.0%
Kosher Salt   2.50%
Sugar   1.50%
Ischia Starter   3.0%

I brought everything together on a slow speed and then let sit for 10 minutes in the bowl. Then mixed on a medium speed until the dough was perfectly silky looking. Fermented at room temp for 21hrs. Both pies were 400 grams dough and stretched to just a pinch over 13" diameter.

The first pizza was a true nod to brunch. Kale massaged with salt, pepper, evoo, and a squeeze of lemon juice, Bacon, fresh mozz, a little heavy cream, red sauce, and finished with pecorino. Of course a couple eggs...because BRUNCH.

The second is my favorite pizza. Red sauce, fresh mozz, lm mozz, white cheddar, pepperoni, kalamata olives, and red onion, finished with pecorino and evoo.

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2018, 06:49:33 PM »
I had some fun Saturday morning with some pies for brunch. Been tweaking my dough recipe to try to get KABF to where I want. I ran out of All-Trumps and haven't reordered yet due to being frustrated paying so much for flour. This crust was phenomenal although in a perfect world I would love just a tiny pinch more oven rise on the outer rim. I think I am going to let it ferment just a little more for the next round. The crust had an amazing crunch on the outside and great chew though.


Your pie looks great.  I'm sure the more salient feature is the texture and why I'd imagine you started this thread and I agree. 
We can't eat pictures, but you had a revelation.  Good for you.  Keep it up, I really like what you're doing.

And larger batches of dough will make better dough as long as the mixer can handle it.  Try to do it and use scraps for other bread products. 

I'm a firm believer of a 50lb flour batch making a completely different dough than a few doughs.  The folding and stretching within a large mixer, folding repeatedly into itself.  Cold ferment just makes everything equal and why Pizza Hut and Dominos does it, it's for their own corporate consistency.  (I love the new Pizza Hut btw)

Offline seanc56

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 09:22:57 AM »
Your pie looks great.  I'm sure the more salient feature is the texture and why I'd imagine you started this thread and I agree. 
We can't eat pictures, but you had a revelation.  Good for you.  Keep it up, I really like what you're doing.

And larger batches of dough will make better dough as long as the mixer can handle it.  Try to do it and use scraps for other bread products. 

I'm a firm believer of a 50lb flour batch making a completely different dough than a few doughs.  The folding and stretching within a large mixer, folding repeatedly into itself.  Cold ferment just makes everything equal and why Pizza Hut and Dominos does it, it's for their own corporate consistency.  (I love the new Pizza Hut btw)

Thanks for the kind words. I'm thinking this next batch will be 4 pizzas worth and I will split and try 2 of them with multi day cold ferment to see what the difference is and if it's something I like. Being an engineer, this quest is extremely fulfilling to my analytical and scientific way of thinking.

Offline Rainier42

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Re: A mixer makes all the difference. How I finally got NY style right.
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2018, 03:33:13 PM »
I've been dabbling in NY style pizzas for a bit now and had some decent success but nothing I thought was amazing. Fast forward a bit and we decided to purchase a mystical wonderful Akarsrum mixer. With it's strange mixing technique I was a bit perplexed at how it could possibly mix and knead so well but alas I had to give it a try. I used this recipe below heavily inspired by Craig:
Flour   100%   
Water 64%   
Kosher Salt   
IDY   0.20%   
EVOO 3%   
LDM   1%
Sugar 1%

All the ingredients were put in the bowl except for flour and blended then the flour quickly added. After ingredients were incorporated I set it on a low medium speed and walked away for about 6 minutes to come back to the silkiest ball I have ever experienced. After letting the dough sit for 15 minutes or so and giving a couple slap and folds to bring into a ball I was ready to divide and ball up for the 7ish hour room temp ferment.

The pizzas were baked on a 1/2" steel in my home oven with the oven internal temp reading 500F on an in oven thermometer. Baked for 6 minutes with the last 2 with the broiler on. I was trying to focus on making consistently sized round pizzas and unfortunately had a problem with the first not launching cleanly. I then swapped to semolina on the peel for the 2nd and all was right in the world.

Onto the pies. Approximately 13" diam. Cheese is a blend of low moisture WM from Whole Foods, Fresh mozz from Whole Foods, and Cracker Barrel Aged Reserve.

Question ... approximately how long do you let the mixer run for?

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