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Author Topic: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures  (Read 34042 times)

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Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #880 on: April 23, 2017, 06:44:59 PM »
For me it is not the amount (I should have mentioned, same amount as well as same sauce recipe) - for me thicker or thinner sauce has a profound impact on what happens to the cheese above and the dough below as it cooks....
Yup, totally agree with the viscosity and how much the flavors develop with thinner sauces. Combining more viscosity with more sauce period makes it even more difficult is all I was adding.  :)
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Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #881 on: April 25, 2017, 12:43:22 PM »
Time for some abuse. The subject of sauce amounts and the ratio of sauce to cheese got me thinking about how a large amount of sauce and reduced cheese would be. I baked a 14-inch pie today with 139g of sauce and 145g Mozzarella. Normal is probably 130g sauce and 175g cheese these days.

I also tried to break my latest sauce regimen and hard cheese strategies. I increased a few of the stronger ingredients and went with my thickest sauce in some time, and went about 25% each additional Pecorino and Parmesan.  More on the sauce regimen later. I need to shrink a lot of text.

Same bake position and temps as the other day - 535F on the lower-mid rack for 7:15. 5-day old FS dough behaving as nice as any FS dough I have ever done. I will be on cloud 9 if I can repeat this dough. I did an AT/CY version of it yesterday for a bake tomorrow or Thursday.

Outcome? I know my limits on hard cheeses now. The sauce was a bit strong, too. I was surprised at how well the juiciness held it's ground despite a bit of an over-bake (a wee little bit) and 35g less cheese. I oiled post bake. I think even the pie drooled.  :drool: :drool: The sauce/cheese boil was more like it is on my BS. I like more normal better, but this was still pretty darned good. Might have enoyed it more with less of the hard cheeses. I've tried going over by that much before and had similar results. I took enough positive away from this one to add this whole, I dunno, bake style(?) to the regimen.

 
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #882 on: April 25, 2017, 12:50:11 PM »
Looks awesome Roy

Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #883 on: April 25, 2017, 02:21:16 PM »
Hi folks. I'm afraid that my sauce is a perfect companion to my dough/crust. It is very much on the process intensive side of the scale. However, it works very well, and I feel like I am finally starting to steer the boat instead of visa-versa.  Here is what I wrote up and how I came up with it. Actually, more like "why" I think it works. Bake to bake guess work is out of the equation for the first time. And finally, of course it goes without saying that this all is just what ended up working well for me.

One of my biggest ongoing challenges has been sauce flavor development. When it was on, it was on. Even early on. The sauce/cheese boil was of great importance to me pretty much right away.  When it was off, however, who knows what would happen. Some bakes would off balance just a little, but others would be way off. Anything from too strong of a flavor of some ingredient or some huge effect on one of the big 4 flavor categories.  Still other times, it would taste outright undeveloped. If it was a thicker sauce, it would seem somewhat pasty. A thin-set sauce undercooked might end up just bland.

There has been much talk about home verses professional gear. I love the challenge of making a pizzeria quality pie in a home oven. It is great fun. To have something this involved as a hobby reward me with something that is incredibly good to eat is darned near a perfect combination. I view the challenges to be two things. One is overcoming the unforgiving nature of our mixers and ovens verses the forgiving nature of a professional's set-up. The other, of course, is professional know-how. I do not have, nor lay any claim to any level of expertise. In essence, this is partially an exercise to overcome my own limitations. In other words, to grow.

So how to make a more forgiving sauce?

It all came to me in an instant, at the oddest moment. A whole slew of thoughts converged on me from out of no-where. These ideas came from quite a few learning experiences I had. These were:

#1: The MAE method.
#2: My own frustration using oil in my sauce. (might be good one day, but often picked one element out and blasted it through and sending the pie way out of balance.)
#3: A late-October failure when trying to saute some paste and other ingredients in oil, which ended up being the base for a gastrointestinal cleansing pie that was off the charts awful and impossible to put down and stop eating.
#4: Ryan recently talking about perhaps pre-cooking sauce by a very small amount.   
#5: The great cheese melt discussion.
#6: The subsequent discussion about sauce viscosity.
#7: My own failures about using Anchovy paste in sauce. (In short, it less than ideal, the bitter raw paste flavor would come through instead of that "5th flavor" element.

The MAE method is really impressive. It's just that it's not what I wanted. This is a personal preference, of course.  Not an insult to anyone or anything. I like mine different. However, one can learn from something they do not agree with 100%. The MAE method talks about how oils are able to penetrate ingredients' tough exteriors to allow flavors to come out. Indeed, it performs as advertised. I just prefer a fresher taste.

I also do not like to put my sauce into a fridge. Tomatoes, yes, for a few days at the most. Not the sauce. Mine is made fresh from tomatoes a couple hours before the bake. There is a difference. Even simply salting 2 hours before and 2 days before.
Alas, My preference towards making fresh every time is probably not the most forgiving of the two options, which in turn would seem counter-productive to my home kitchen efforts.

There were three different ways, in the list above, that oil affected the sauces. MAE, the Gut-Bomb and the random flavor bursts I had at bakes with oil in the sauce. Could I use oil's effects in a way that was fresher? It has been said that the first time tomatoes release flavor is different than the rest. You only get the one shot at the fresher, first heat event flavors.

Then the thought hit me to try to replace the Microwave with the pizza baking itself. Do the MAE method while it bakes. Of course, there would be no microwave involved. The microwave would get replaced by the on-pie boil/bake. Perhaps I could mix a few ingredients into a small amount of oil and then build the rest of the sauce on top of that after it sets for a few minutes.

My idea's first iteration was to soak a small amount of paste and herbs(eg Oregano, Italian seasonings, etc) in a small amount of oil before mixing the tomatoes and the rest of the ingredients in.  As soon as the tomato paste entered into the equation, so did anchovy paste. They live side by side behind the butter.

So into the kitchen I went. I mixed a very small amount of oil, tomato paste, anchovy paste and Italian seasonings together and let it sit for about two minutes. I followed it up with the rest of my tomatoes and then other ingredients. Two hours later, I was biting into my pizza and tasted a very successful flavor development. My flavor development. My ingredients pretty much remained the same. Score!!!

I adjusted my ingredients list and am still adjusting it. This as a month ago, yesterday. Every single pie I have baked has come out to within my desired balance range with the exception of one. That one, I believe I added salt twice. (grrrr)  Assuming 3.5 pies a week, I have made 16 to 18 pies. One was too salty. One erred in a direction I sent it to. That was today's bake. I increased both pastes Oregano and pepper in edition to making it both thicker and making sure it cooked stronger by removing some of the cheese. The sauce came out stronger. Everything else, including today's, I guess, was on target.

I have taken additional water out almost entirely, I have made thicker pies, changed stones two weeks ago and I have over-loaded to what would have surely been and undeveloped flavor result. No undeveloped sauce flavor. Just one un-intentional "too much salt" pie and the one too strong flavored pie.   

Enough blabbering. Here it is. Remember, it is not about the ingredients as much as it is the method. I am still dialing in ingredients. Apply the method you your ingredient list for your preferred pie. Having said that, use the "*" items from the first ingredient list to start as well as 1/8  to 1/4 tsp of your recipe's herbs in place of mine. Anchovy paste is optional, but why not if it's going to come out right every time? 

For 130g of sauce, enough for a 14" pie.
Ingredients Part #1
*1/4 tsp Tomato Paste (dble concentrate from the tube, but I bet others will work)
* 1/8th tsp Anchovy Paste (I do not know if optional yet)
1/8th tsp Italian Seasonings
* Scant 1/8th tsp of Oregano (I have 1/16th spoons and use that.)
* 1 tsp Olive Oil

Step #1
Combine all ingredients listed above and so far, and whisk together very well. Get as much of the bits and pieces of the pastes liquified as you can within a reasonable amount of time. In the very least, no big globs.)

Ingredients Part #2
115g Tomatoes (whatever tomatoes you use)
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar
scant 1/8th tsp pepper (I use 1/16th tsp)
1/2 tsp minced fresh garlic (reserved)
water (reserved)
 
Step #2
 - Add the tomatoes to the mixture and stir or whisk thoroughly again. This time to incorporate the oil mixture into the tomatoes.
 - Add the spices/herbs to the tomato mixture and combine.
 - Add any water or tomatoes you need to add a little bit at a time to get to the viscosity you desire and/or normally have and to reach weight goals.
 - Let set out until it's time to make the pizza. I make my sauce about 2 hours pre-launch. I never send it to the fridge. I assume that If you normally send yours to the fridge that you still can. I am not sure yet. I may never find out.

Notes:
 - Everyone has their own recipe. Use what you like. My recipe is largely unimportant. What matters more than anything is the process. The method makes this work.
  - I have not added salt or pepper to the oil/paste mixture at the beginning, but will try sometime. If someone tries, please report back. I'd love to hear how it goes.
 - Secret ingredient not listed - 5 non-pareil capers very, very well drained and "minced" in with the tomato and anchovy paste and oil mixture. I do this once a week at least. Adds sort of a peppery, 5th flavor element. Maybe builds on the anchovy thing?
 - Speaking of the pastes, I have no clue if either or both of the pastes are optional or not. If you try without, please report back to this space. I'm betting that the tomato paste is not optional.
Embrace the challenge. Do not accept difficult as impossible. Enjoy the journey. Become your own pizza memory.

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #884 on: April 25, 2017, 02:30:39 PM »
Looks awesome Roy

Roy when I saw your pie I was going to say awesome - but dang it - someone  :-D  beat me to it - so feel free to pick any other word(s) from the list below

breathtaking, awe-inspiring, magnificent, wonderful, amazing, stunning, staggering, imposing, stirring, impressive, mind-boggling, mind-blowing, jaw-dropping, excellent, marvelous, wonderful

Nice job!
Norm

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Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #885 on: April 25, 2017, 02:38:28 PM »
Thanks, Ryan and Norm. I'm very appreciative of the comments. We do work hard for our results.  8)

Roy
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #886 on: April 25, 2017, 06:47:40 PM »
Hi folks............

Great post Roy. I'm enjoying following your journey and thought process.
Matt

Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #887 on: April 25, 2017, 11:24:49 PM »
Thanks, Matt. I hope you or someone tries this.

Roy
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Offline sandiegokayaker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #888 on: April 26, 2017, 12:04:33 AM »
I am a native NYer that now lives in the land of fruits and nuts aka: california.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and love the fact that your dough and crust reminds of the heavier crusts from the 60s and 70s.

That is my quest also. I have cooked maybe 20-25 pizzas so far with not very good results. The californians here like them but what do they know about NY pizza, lol.

Are you using AT Bromated flour? I can not buy it here in CA and only can get the unbleached unbromated version.

I eventually hope to make some NY pizzas as good as you are doing. Great work!

Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #889 on: April 26, 2017, 06:48:10 AM »
I am a native NYer that now lives in the land of fruits and nuts aka: california.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and love the fact that your dough and crust reminds of the heavier crusts from the 60s and 70s.

That is my quest also. I have cooked maybe 20-25 pizzas so far with not very good results. The californians here like them but what do they know about NY pizza, lol.

Are you using AT Bromated flour? I can not buy it here in CA and only can get the unbleached unbromated version.

I eventually hope to make some NY pizzas as good as you are doing. Great work!
Thanks, sandiegokayaker.

Yes, I am using bromated flour. Normally All Trumps(AT), but this most pies this year have been Full Strength. I've been on some sort of stubborn, learning experience quest thing to try and get FS to work in a regimen I conjured up using All Trumps. The pay-off is that it is improving my All Trumps game.

I have tried a few KABF batches this year and can testify that they have been in the range enough to suggest that a fine entry could be made from it.

I think I will order a 5-lb sack of un-bromated AT to see what the difference is between that and bromated AT. 

 - Roy
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #890 on: April 26, 2017, 06:55:43 AM »
...
I think I will order a 5-lb sack of un-bromated AT to see what the difference is between that and bromated AT. 


I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this as I'm considering buying AT un-bromated. The only flour I've ever used is King Arthur Hi-gluten.
Matt

Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #891 on: April 26, 2017, 07:49:35 AM »
This is how I get in trouble. I went out to my fridge to get a back up container of 1/2 & 1/2. I've got 4 dough-balls mature and ready to bake. Bacio and Grande in the inside fridge all recently shredded up and about 275g of 7/11 - Saputo blend just one day removed from the freezer. Such torment. must_______ space______ bakes______ out_______  .

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this as I'm considering buying AT un-bromated. The only flour I've ever used is King Arthur Hi-gluten.
I got lucky. My Penn Mac order is being shipped this morning. I called and got a 5-lb re-sack bag of the un-bromated All Trumps.  :)   I will change only the flour when I do the mix.

The other upside is that I am just a couple days away from getting my Saputo Gold replenished. The Penn Mac site says that the Saputo Gold is "Formerly known as  F & A cheese company". Anyone know if this is the same F&A as being touted as being part of the NY scene, at least at some point? It would not surprise me in the least.
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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #892 on: April 26, 2017, 08:19:56 AM »
The other upside is that I am just a couple days away from getting my Saputo Gold replenished. The Penn Mac site says that the Saputo Gold is "Formerly known as  F & A cheese company". Anyone know if this is the same F&A as being touted as being part of the NY scene, at least at some point? It would not surprise me in the least.

Different companies.  Saputo of Canada acquired "F&A Dairy of California." 

"F&A Dairy Products" used in many pizzerias is located in Wisconsin.

http://fadairy.com/our-history/

Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #893 on: April 26, 2017, 11:25:14 AM »
Different companies.  Saputo of Canada acquired "F&A Dairy of California." 

"F&A Dairy Products" used in many pizzerias is located in Wisconsin.

http://fadairy.com/our-history/
Thanks, HH. Looks like something else to try.  ;D ;D 
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Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #894 on: April 26, 2017, 11:27:07 AM »
OK, so today's random thought/question. Post-bake oil drizzle - how soon after taking it out of the oven until the drizzle, and why? 

I'm all over the place. Too many things going on pie to pie here to determine when the best is.

Roy
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Offline rparker

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Re: rparker's NY Style Mis-adventures
« Reply #895 on: April 26, 2017, 01:11:38 PM »
I could not resist temptation. I did my 2-day old AT/CY test bake today with the additional regimen modification. it was a success. I even have room to make it better, based on what I felt with my recent FS/IDY batch. I will never regret taking a few months to up my FS/IDY game. I brought items back with me to the AT/CY world.  :chef: :chef: :chef:   I am in tweak mode with both flours and yeast combos now.

Heavily sauced(140g) and moderately heavy on the cheese(190g), which included 7g of cheddar and maybe 15g of a very mild provolone. Very greasy pizza. No, that is not a complaint. I did go up to 350g of dough to make it a .080TF. 2-days old. Pretty good flavor for two days old. Also over-baked again, mostly on purpose as I am forcing myself to wait 20-ish seconds after I think it's done to take it out. Today I probably should not have waited. Maybe it's a FS/IDY on adjustment? (obviously something only applicable to me with my regimen, oven, lack of skill, etc, etc)

Roy
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