Is my dough over proofing?

[CJay]

Hoping someone can lend some assistance.

I believe I am having an issue with over proofing.
I ferment my dough overnight in the fridge(20hrs) and at approx 11am I ball the dough, place in dough containers and  place back in the refrigerator until about 4pm.
I remove them from the refrigerator, leave the balled dough in their container to come up to room temp.
If they are still cold to the touch approx after 2-2.5hrs, I have some trouble with dough tearing unless I am very cautious.
If I let warm up a bit longer maybe an extra hour, the dough becomes very loose and seem to hold a lot of gas.
I'm assuming they are over proofing with this extra bit of time.
How soon is it recommended to ball dough after bulk fermentation?
Am I doing this too early?
Does this sound like over proofing?
Thanks you.

[Timpanogos Slim]

we need to know how much yeast is in your recipe and what kind?

[CJay]

Thank you for your reply 'Timpanogos Slim'.
Sorry for the late reply, work is getting in the way.

This is the recipe below that I am using.
Yeast I am using is Fleischmann's pizza yeast. I have tried to find if this is a ADY or IDY and cant find any info.
In fact I also have to learn more about the differences these two types of yeast make in a pizza.

water 70%
salt 2.0%
honey 1.2%
flour 100%
yeast .2%
olive oil 1.6%
& occasionally 15% sour dough starter
I do not feed the starter and prepare it before using. I am trying to get more flavor from the dough with this addition.

flour,water, honey & starter (when using a starter)--> autolayse for 30 min
Mix 15 with yeast and salt
rest15
mix 15
rest 15
mix 15 and incorporate oil.
Refrigerate for approx 20hrs(overnight)
Ball dough and place back in refrigerator for approx another 5 hrs
Remove from fridge and let sit on counter at room temp(approx 19 deg) until baking approx 2-2.5 hrs.

Dough after about 3 to 3.5 on counter is very extensible  and gassy.
I have always thought it was best for the dough to be gassy. When opening dough I use fingertips to push down middle leaving a cornicione so that is puffs up nicely.
I am learning this may be the wrong way to do this, but I am still reading up in this forum.
Thank you for any assistance.

[CJay]

Some pictures

[foreplease]

Do I understand this right? After you mix well enough to do an autolyse, you mix an additional 45 minutes in three 15 minute sets with 15 min in between?


Do you know the temperature of the water you are using or, more importantly, the final dough temp? The occasional addition of 15% sourdough starter could be contributing to your problem occasionally. It seems more likely you have a problem of procedure: too much mixing time by far, or a final dough temperature that is very high - or both.


I would like to see you get this resolved. Give us any additional info you can.

[foreplease]

After seeing your post with photos I am still thinking it is an over mixing problem.

[CJay]

Thanks Tony.
Yes you are correct about the mixing routine.
I am currently using a Kitchen Aid mixer with dough hook.
Water approx 85 deg
After mixing dough is roughly 78 to as high as 83 deg F
Question;
How do I tell if I have over mixed?

[foreplease]

Well, we can hope ScottR wanders in    or go with some version of this:


It's good that you know your FDT. My most recent was 85-86 on Monday. I wanted 76-78. If you come in consistently below 80, I think you will have an easier time taking it to the fridge. Re Mixing, if I were using your method, and following up with 25 hrs cold fermentation time (combined bulk + ball), I think I would mix 2 to 2 1/2 min to get it mixed enough for autolyse. Following autolyse, I might mix 2-3 minutes more, one 15 min rest, add salt, and mix for 2 min more. That puts me at 6 to 7 1/2 minutes total mixing time. Even that strikes me as more than I need or have patience for. Your dough will continue to build strength over the long cold ferment. Under your method, I think you may be creating a very stiff, tight dough, prone to tearing or being difficult. That is my best guess. Try it and see: 7 min max mixing of all combined sets.

[CJay]

Thanks again Tony.
I will try your suggested mixing procedure.
When I do, I will type my results here with pictures.

[scott r]

Considering all the information given, I am siding with Tony... you dont need me!

Only thing to add is that the pizza looks great!  I think your fermentation is right where it should be so I would maybe add a little more yeast or a little more time at room temp if your finished dough temp comes down.  Once its not over mixed this should be an excellent dough.   You may find that at 70% its too easy to open now without all that mixing and also want to back down on the hydration slightly.

[CJay]

Thanks for your input Scott. Im appreciative of your time to reply.

Question for you or anyone who has a moment to answer, I have seen videos where the dough remains extensible, but is also  strong enough to properly handle.
I was watching a video with Tony Genignani for example. How does he get this dough so strong?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=opening+dough+tony+gemignani#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:74435806,vid:SjYqw1CLZsA

Thanks again.
Happy Pizza Making!

[Timpanogos Slim]

Thanks for your input Scott. Im appreciative of your time to reply.

Question for you or anyone who has a moment to answer, I have seen videos where the dough remains extensible, but is also  strong enough to properly handle.
I was watching a video with Tony Genignani for example. How does he get this dough so strong?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=opening+dough+tony+gemignani#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:74435806,vid:SjYqw1CLZsA

Thanks again.
Happy Pizza Making!

It's *possible that he does it by using his signature brand of 15% protein flour. Which says "type 00" on the label, but is not. It has a little malt in it and isn't recommended for high temperatures.

https://centralmilling.com/product/tony-gemignani-pizza-flour-california-artisan-type-00/

[CJay]

"Timpanogos Slim
I wanted to share this back with you.
With a bit further searching, I found this video.
Seems he is controlling the factor with salt. At least when he is displaying his pizza spinning talents.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdP3MmLGNy8

[Timpanogos Slim]

I haven't watched all of it yet. I surely respect the skill, but just like a trapeze act, throwing dough is not what I'm here for.

He did mention that he's using "his" flour. I don't know how long CM has been making a signature flour for him. They indicate that it spent some years in development, and i don't know what the timeline was.

He adds LDMP to this batch, but the CM signature flour has some already. *shrug*. IT's good flour. I liked the 5 pounds of it that i used. But to get more i would have to either drive 100 miles, or figure out when the next time my nephew or someone else i know is driving to Logan and back, or pay shipping, and for my pizza needs it is not *that much better than bread flour i can get at the grocery store.

I think it's weird to refer to malt as "derivative of barley" and "more natural" -- more natural than synthesized enzymes i guess. It *is barley. What bakers refer to as "sprouted" grain, brewers refer to as "malted" grain. Same thing. Different malted grains have different diastatic power, expressed in degrees lintner. 2-row barley malt is very strong. Oat malt is very weak. There's a lot in-between. Malt flour has to be milled at a low temperature to avoid destroying the enzymes, which is why you can also get malt flour that isn't diastatic.

I'm sure that there are dough doctor posts on the subject but yeah late addition of flour does allow the gluten matrix to get started better and results in a stronger matrix, which you may or may not want in your pizza.

Also on the subject of how much it hurts the yeast to have the salt dumped into the mixer with the water and yeast. My experience is, not a ton if you go ahead and start adding flour pretty soon.

[kori]

Thanks for your input Scott. Im appreciative of your time to reply.

Question for you or anyone who has a moment to answer, I have seen videos where the dough remains extensible, but is also  strong enough to properly handle.
I was watching a video with Tony Genignani for example. How does he get this dough so strong?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=opening+dough+tony+gemignani#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:74435806,vid:SjYqw1CLZsA

Thanks again.
Happy Pizza Making!

he is using a lower hydration dough, I'd bet 65% or lower, you wont get that at 70%

[CJay]

Question:
Timpanogos Slim , Scott, or anyone else who can answer...

After fermentation in the refrigerator, what is your suggestion for balling dough?
How long before bake off do I ball up?
Also how long on counter at room temp when I remove dough balls from fridge?
Thanks

[CJay]

@Timpanogos Slim
Burning in new oven this evening and attempting the changes you recommended.
I will post pics of finished pizzas tomorrow.
Thanks again.

[Timpanogos Slim]

Congratulations on your pizza party.

I usually do a room temp bulk ferment, then ball, and then refrigerate. Different strokes for different folks.

It's probably ok to ball the dough while cold? There are different techniques, search here and on youtube.

From refrigerator or from freshly balled, it depends on the hydration but 2 hours is a good starting point.

[scott r]

Question:
Timpanogos Slim , Scott, or anyone else who can answer...

After fermentation in the refrigerator, what is your suggestion for balling dough?

This depends on how much yeast is in the dough.  If a lot of yeast is used, the dough will grow a lot in bulk quickly while in the fridge.  If this happens in a day or two I ball the dough when it has grown somewhere between 50% and 100% in size. 

If a medium amount of yeast is used its possible to leave dough in the fridge for a long time, not see it rise much, yet have it be fairly far along into fermentation.  If it takes more than 2 days...like 3,4,5 days and not much growth has happened, its ok to ball the dough without seeing much rise happen.   The protein content of the dough will also somewhat dictate how much rise I am looking for, with higher protein doughs allowing more rise than low protein doughs.

How long before bake off do I ball up?

If im using a really wet dough I do the balling closer to the time that the dough is going to be baked.  The amount of yeast and if its cold fermented or has spent some time at room temp also comes into play here.  Also, the protein content of the dough will have an effect in my decision somewhat.

how long on counter at room temp when I remove dough balls from fridge?

This depends on how much fermentation has already happened.  If the dough is already far along I am only looking for it to come up to room temperature or close to it.  If the dough still needs to ferment more I will leave it out for an entire day sometimes, but it is dependent on how much yeast is used and the protein content of the dough as well as some other factors such as hydration and strength of the dough.

[CJay]

When you do a room temp bulk ferment, how do you stop the yeast from taking off?
I feel as though if I did that I would end up with an over fermented dough and no yeast left.
Do you add more yeast or more salt to slow the yeast?
Thanks