Author Topic: Oil or no Oil?  (Read 557 times)

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Offline Swinger-mike

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Oil or no Oil?
« on: December 12, 2016, 08:28:49 AM »
I have been baking NY- style pizza in a wfo for a couple months now.

I have always been following some recepies of this forum which almost all contain small amounts of oil, though i find these doughs often getting too soft to launch properly into the oven

My standart dough formulas would be about.

100% strong bread or high protein flour or a 50/50 mix.
60-65% of water.
0.1-0.25% idy depending on 48h or 72h cf + 4-6h rt in balls
2-2.5% salt
1.5-2% oil
1.5-2% malt syrup

I always cf in bulk - then ball the dough and let it warm up and rise at rt for about 4-6h.
My mixing routine is always by hand for about 15 min starting with ice water, 1-2 resting periods of 20 min and some strechfolding.

I think the problem could be the temperature, as we are always outsite at around 30c, we're just building a proofer to keep the balls below 20 but yet again i wanna get things right even under bad circumstances.

My thoughts were to cut off the oil completly, reduce the water down to 59-60% and up the salt and the malt-syrup to 3% to maximise the dough strength and shorten the baking time as well. I want to achieve a very workable and stable dough for high outside temperatures.

The average baking time was around 7 Minutes at 300-310bottom heat and 370-380in the dome but I'd much prefer to be below 5 min with a nice crispy bottom that hods up well and a flavourfull crumb.

So long story short, how important is the oil for consistency and flavour? would you guys say its a key ingredient or can i work around it?
What would you change to make the dough more workable? longer fermentation with less yeast, so I'll expand the time window where the dough isnt over fermenting?
No oil? more salt?
I just felt like the oil makes my dough too soft at high outside temperatures!

I did make some dough today with 2 different bread flours.
59% water
3% salt
3% malt
0.1% yeast
72h cf

will post results.

I also did the same formula with 1.5% eevo added last week but didnt get to bake it, so it fermented 7 days in bulk in a cooler 2nd fridge, I punched the bulk down today, balled the dough and put it into oiled plastic bags to sit another 3 days at 2c....looking forward to see how they come out.

I dont want to bake a very classic NY- style pizza, but kind of like a neapolitan NY style mix....as good i can get it done in a wfo. Large, rather light, crispy bottom which can hold a good amount of toppings, nice browned crust...a pizza you would like to eat the next day cold basically.

some pics of the previous bakes are attached.




« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:30:49 AM by Swinger-mike »

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 09:57:19 AM »
I would leave 1% oil in if you plan to have leftovers. 56-60% water. A 7 day fermentation will degrade the gluten and soften the dough too to some degree.

Ryan

Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 10:07:16 AM »
Hi invertedisdead, thank you for your input.

Just to clarify, that 7 day dough i didnt get to bake last week, so i kept it as I didnt want to throw it away! It was timed  3 day cold ferment at 5 so i reduced the temperature to slow it down a bit.

This is just an experiment  ;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »
There is a lot of water in malt syrup, so that's pushing your HR up and making your dough softer.

Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with (scott) 1-2-3 dough:

bread flour
61% HR (work your way slowly up over time to 63% or whatever point you start having problems with the dough being too soft)
3% oil
2% salt
1% sugar
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 10:17:09 AM »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 10:47:58 AM »
There is a lot of water in malt syrup, so that's pushing your HR up and making your dough softer.

Malt syrup is ~80% solids; at 3% that's a 0.6% increase in HR.
In grams we trust.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 10:56:16 AM »
Malt syrup is ~80% solids; at 3% that's a 0.6% increase in HR.

Good info. Notwithstanding, there is no reason to use it unless you like the flavor (and can taste it at 3%).
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 11:03:48 AM »
i tryed to get a hold of  powdered malt, but i am in Perth(Australia) and i could only find the syrup.

I like it though, the flavour was quite nice and a much better and quicker browning.

http://www.aussieproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DDMEXT

I used this product.

I didnt put any extra sugar as the syrup has plenty.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:06:20 AM by Swinger-mike »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 11:15:41 AM »
I don't think that's diastatic, so I think you would get about the same browning effect from sugar.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 11:27:25 AM »
I'll have to try that.

TXCraig, did you ever make NY- style pizza without oil? if yes, how were they?

At what point do you mix your fats in? I did read that it coats the gluten and makes the dough softer in structure.
Which could be one of my issues, but also the temperature as i have used mostly 0.20% idy for 48 cf. then 6 hour RT and some time at 30+ outside.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 11:47:54 AM »
I don't think I ever have made NY w/o oil. If so, it's been a while. I almost always add the oil into the water (after dissolving the salt and sugar). Personally, I don't think it makes a meaningful difference when you add the oil at only 3%.

I think one of the reasons you dough is so slack is because it's in balls for so long. The gluten totally relaxes. You might try all but the last 12 hours (or 6 hours) in bulk.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 12:08:40 PM »
That's good to know, i thought i was doing something wrong by adding the oil early.

I ball my dough after the bulk ferment when i take the dough out the fridge, they only stay around 6 hours balled.

would you say that is too long? i do form them when the dough is still cold and let them relax and rise upto temperature.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »
That's good to know, i thought i was doing something wrong by adding the oil early.

I ball my dough after the bulk ferment when i take the dough out the fridge, they only stay around 6 hours balled.

would you say that is too long? i do form them when the dough is still cold and let them relax and rise upto temperature.

I wouldn't think it's too long, but I really don't know much about how CF affects these things.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 12:38:34 PM »
Looks like all I can do is keep experimenting!

I think i will make another 48h cf dough tomorrow with the very same formula, But will increase the yeast to 0.15% and add 3% oil.

I really liked the malt syrup last time, so I will use it still at 3% instead of adding extra sugar.

Offline gfgman

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Re: Oil or no Oil?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2016, 07:17:43 PM »
For what it's worth, I'm convinced that some of my favorite local pizzerias use oil in their dough.  However, whenever I experiment with using oil in my home oven, I don't like the outcome.  I always go back to using no oil, except for rubbing some on the finished dough ball.  I prefer that much more.