Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 452819 times)

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Offline russian_pizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1125 on: December 08, 2016, 09:40:09 AM »
Greetings to all those participating in this topic. This is already my second year of following this topic, but I was only reading, so I decided to register. To tell my own story.
I am a businessman from a small town in Russia. Several years ago I decided to open a pizza place that would mostly make deliveries in my small town.
Since I completely lacked any experience in the restaurant industry, I decided to take some entry level jobs at McDonald's and Papa John Pizza in Moscow. With some experience, I started a project
to open a pizzeria. We have already been operating for almost 2 months, I simply want to find out how to make Papa John's crazy dough.
I ask you to help me unravel this secret recipe, in a way to make it with ingredients that are easy to find in Russia.
I'll now try to write our test recipe and how we prepare it: - flour (5 kilograms) - water (2600 grams, at 13 - 14 degrees centigrade) - salt (100 grams) - sugar (200 grams)
- special pizza yeast (11 grams)
- sunflower oil (260 grams)
Knead it well, for about 15 minutes. Then the dough is put in the refrigerator at a temperature of 4-6 degrees Centigrade. A minimum of 48 hours.
A little later, I'll show you how we use the oven and which oven settings. And I will show some photos of the finished pizzas.
In the meantime, I would like to hear your suggestions for ingredients, and more importantly your advice on how I should change the recipe.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1126 on: December 08, 2016, 05:55:08 PM »
russian-pizza,

I have a few questions, but first this is what your recipe looks like in baker's percents:

100% Flour, 5000 grams
52% Water, 2600 grams
2% Salt, 200 grams
4% Sugar, 200 grams
0.22% Special pizza yeast, 11 grams
5.2% Sunflower oil, 260 grams

Can you tell me where or how you came up with the above recipe?

Also, can you tell me what kind or brand of flour you are using in the above recipe?

And can you tell us what a special pizza yeast is, and what it constitutes? Maybe you can provide a link that describes that product.

Peter




Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1127 on: December 08, 2016, 07:34:58 PM »
For a recent example of a two-day (cold fermented) PJ clone pizza by member Andy, see Reply 8070 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg459721#msg459721, and Reply 8076 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg459789#msg459789.

Peter

Offline russian_pizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1128 on: December 09, 2016, 02:48:26 PM »
russian-pizza,

I have a few questions, but first this is what your recipe looks like in baker's percents:

100% Flour, 5000 grams
52% Water, 2600 grams
2% Salt, 200 grams
4% Sugar, 200 grams
0.22% Special pizza yeast, 11 grams
5.2% Sunflower oil, 260 grams

Can you tell me where or how you came up with the above recipe?

Also, can you tell me what kind or brand of flour you are using in the above recipe?

And can you tell us what a special pizza yeast is, and what it constitutes? Maybe you can provide a link that describes that product.

Peter
This recipe is used by one network, it is publicly available on the Internet.

Below I will try to translate the composition of flour and yeast which we use:

Flour:
highest quality whole wheat baking flour
Shelf life 12 months
Nutritional value/caloric content per 100 grams of product:
Carbohydrates-71 grams
Protein-10 grams
Fat-1 gram

Yeast (common), these are also present:
Ingredients: especially selected strain of yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), emulsifier E491.
There is a link to a full description of these yeasts (in Russian, you can use Google Translator): http://lesaffre.ru/?p=404
Yeast for pizza, from the same manufacturer
Description in Russian: http://lesaffre.ru/?p=352

We started to use version 2, because it has better reviews.

Offline russian_pizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1129 on: December 09, 2016, 03:58:36 PM »
Also, I want to add one point about flour:

This manufacturer has special flour for pizza (I don't know how it differs from the regular one, most likely there's a tad bit more protein content).

Just want to note that on the website of the flour producer, in the section "Partners", there is a "Pappa Johns" logo. This means that we are on the right track. here is link:
http://www.melkombinat3.ru/ru/partners

It means that Pappa John's uses the flour from this manufacturer in its pizzerias in Russia and is not importing it from the United States. But it is quite possible that it imports yeasts. Unfortunately, I have no information on what kind of yeast is used to make Pappa Jonn's pizza dough in Russia.



The trial batch of the special flour will arrive next week. I will definitely write to you about the difference in the dough. If you would like, I can do a photo- or a video report either from the new flour or, from the old one.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1130 on: December 10, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »
Russian-pizza,

Can you cite the link where you found the recipe? The baker's percents look like they could work if the flour is a low protein flour. But I'd like to see the recipe for more details.

I agree that the miller you cited is most likely the supplier to Papa John's in Russia. And the flour would be in bulk, quite likely a Myka flour as shown at the bottom of the page at http://www.melkombinat3.ru/en/bakery-flour-premium-quality-en.

Can you clarify again which Lasaffre yeast product you are using? Maybe I can find more information at the U.S. Lasaffre website. For example, is the yeast you are using the one that produces an onion taste?

Anything you can provide through the use of photos, videos or reports would be helpful.

Peter


Offline russian_pizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1131 on: December 27, 2016, 04:14:33 AM »
Hello, Peter. I apologize for such a long silence, I had a lot to be done.
Dough recipe which I wrote at the beginning, this is not a recipe of PJ's dough.
It was a recipe of other pizzerias. I saw this recipe in some videos on Youtube.

About yeast:

Here's link to the yeast of manufacturer (you can get any) request is the translation into English using google translate (I can not translate this complex text):
-
http://lesaffre.ru/?page_id=214

Here's 2 species of yeast that we use:

1) ref:
http://lesaffre.ru/?p=404
2) http://lesaffre.ru/?p=352

version 2 bought for trial, employees and customers liked it more than the first one.

Now, about the experiments with the test:
We made 2 different mixing according to links that you provided above, please check whether I have correctly translated the baker's percentages in the program:
The first option (IDY (as indicated by the yeast) (0.28%):
Second Embodiment (0.25% IDY):
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 04:23:23 AM by russian_pizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1132 on: December 28, 2016, 01:42:35 PM »
russian_pizza,

This looks to be the translation of the first link that you provided:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Flesaffre.ru%2F%3Fpage_id%3D214.

And these appear to be the translations for the other two links you provided:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Flesaffre.ru%2F%3Fp%3D404, and

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Flesaffre.ru%2F%3Fp%3D352.

From what you have posted, it appears that the IDY is preferred over the fresh yeast. If you wish to try a two day PJ clone dough with IDY, you may want to use either the recipe given at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217 or an updated version as given at Reply 585 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667. In both cases, the IDY is 0.28%. However, the values for the other ingredients are different.

I hope I have answered your questions properly.

Peter


Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1133 on: January 10, 2017, 07:52:56 AM »
can i use sunflower or corn oil ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1134 on: January 10, 2017, 08:08:52 AM »
can i use sunflower or corn oil ?
werty20,

Corn oil in large amounts may yield a flavor that may be too pronounced. So, as between the two oils, I personally would go with the sunflower seed oil even though it is harder to find and is more expensive than other oils, at least here in the U.S. Sunflower seed oil is the oil that PJ uses in its pizza sauce and it is high up in the ingredients statement (see http://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html) so it should be a mild and inoffensive oil. But to satisfy your palate, you might do a couple of experiments using both oils and report back on your findings that may be of value to other members who may want to try other oils.

Peter

Offline wrightme

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1135 on: January 10, 2017, 02:11:43 PM »
I ordered sunflower oil from Amazon walmart online.  The day it showed up, I found the same brand locally at Walmart.   :)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:32:09 PM by wrightme »

Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1136 on: January 11, 2017, 02:14:35 AM »

After giving the matter of an emergency PJ clone dough a fair amount of thought, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following “emergency” dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (171.1%):
371.81 g  |  13.12 oz | 0.82 lbs
210.07 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.98 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
18.59 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
636.17 g | 22.44 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A

The oil was then added to the water/salt/honey mixture. .

i read many time we add the oil later to help the flour absorb more water , its ok to add it like this ?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1137 on: January 11, 2017, 12:12:53 PM »
I ordered sunflower oil from Amazon.  The day before it showed up, I found the same brand locally at Walmart.   :)
wrightme,

While I was at a local Kroger supermarket this morning, I counted about 86 different brands of oil, of all types. If there were multiple bottle sizes of any given oil, I counted that oil only once. But no sunflower oil. It's good to know that WalMart carries it.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1138 on: January 11, 2017, 12:22:06 PM »
i read many time we add the oil later to help the flour absorb more water , its ok to add it like this ?
werty20,

From a science standpoint, for the type of pizza dough in question it is best to add the oil later in the mixing process. However, I discovered that when I have tried to incorporate more than, say, a few percent of oil in dough, late in the mixing process, the dough does not absorb it well and the dough just spins around with a lot of the oil on the outer surface of the dough. Maybe it is because of the small amount of dough but I have to incorporate all of the oil by hand. I did not have to do that when I added the oil to the water early in the mixing process as I described in this thread. All of this said, I wondered how Papa John's does it in its commissaries. It would seem simpler operationally and procedurally just to add the oil to the water.

You should feel free to try both methods and report back to the membership what you learn.

Peter

Offline wrightme

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1139 on: January 11, 2017, 12:50:50 PM »
wrightme,

While I was at a local Kroger supermarket this morning, I counted about 86 different brands of oil, of all types. If there were multiple bottle sizes of any given oil, I counted that oil only once. But no sunflower oil. It's good to know that WalMart carries it.

Peter

Pretty sure it was this one, can check when I am back home.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Authentic-Menu-Imported-Pure-Sunflower-Oil-33.8-fl-oz/47002043



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1140 on: January 11, 2017, 01:43:31 PM »
Pretty sure it was this one, can check when I am back home.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Authentic-Menu-Imported-Pure-Sunflower-Oil-33.8-fl-oz/47002043
wrightme,

When I started my project to reverse engineer and clone the PJ dough, I used soybean oil. That is what PJ used, no doubt because it was (and is) one of the lowest cost oils around. But as Millennials and others started demanding cleaner ingredients, and bloggers started attacking pizza operators like PJ, even if unwarranted, PJ started adding extra virgin olive oil--which is much more expensive than soybean oil, even for large users like PJ--to their doughs. But since the extra virgin olive oil is at the bottom of the ingredients list, such as given at http://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html, there will only be a small amount on a relative basis. I would be surprised if one can even detect it in a finished crust, and if I had to guess, the extra virgin olive oil may be well below one percent. But from a marketing standpoint, it is a smart thing for PJ to do.

Peter

Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1141 on: January 11, 2017, 02:15:22 PM »
werty20,

Corn oil in large amounts may yield a flavor that may be too pronounced. So, as between the two oils, I personally would go with the sunflower seed oil even though it is harder to find and is more expensive than other oils, at least here in the U.S. Sunflower seed oil is the oil that PJ uses in its pizza sauce and it is high up in the ingredients statement (see http://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html) so it should be a mild and inoffensive oil. But to satisfy your palate, you might do a couple of experiments using both oils and report back on your findings that may be of value to other members who may want to try other oils.

Peter
many thx
sunflower is no. 1 oil her and available everywhere , no soybean .. i will try both corn and sunflower oil
1 last question
with 480 - 500f oven using baking sheet can i increase oil or water level ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1142 on: January 11, 2017, 02:51:42 PM »
with 480 - 500f oven using baking sheet can i increase oil or water level ?
werty29,

The oil level is already quite high so I don't think I would increase it, at least not more than a total of about 7%. As for the hydration level, if you increase it, you may end up with a larger rim and a crumb (the soft inside of the crust) that is puffier and more open and airy. This is something I addressed earlier in the thread at Reply 11 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58438#msg58438. However, since I never had reason to try using a baking sheet--only a pizza screen--I can't say how the pizza will behave using a baking sheet. But, before the pizza can start to bake properly, the baking sheet will have to heat up until it reaches the required bake temperature of the pizza. That will mean a longer total bake time, which might have an effect on how the pizza turns out, especially if the cheese heats up faster than the crust and browns before the bottom of the crust is at the desired color.

Peter


Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1143 on: January 12, 2017, 02:11:00 PM »
many thx
can i use the same hand kneed method for 2 day pizza ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1144 on: January 12, 2017, 03:06:42 PM »
many thx
can i use the same hand kneed method for 2 day pizza ?
werty20,

Yes.

Peter

Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1145 on: January 14, 2017, 02:06:30 PM »
after 34h ..  i used the updated 2 day recipe , sun oil .. was a little stiff dough  , will see when it done