Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 440517 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1100 on: October 25, 2016, 08:38:00 AM »
Hermit,

That's a nice looking pizza, and I'm glad the recipe worked out for you. We have had other members use a pizza stone. You just have to watch the pizza a bit more closely to be sure that the bottom crust doesn't burn because of the large amount of sugar in the dough.

Peter

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1101 on: October 27, 2016, 11:17:10 PM »
How much of an effect does the water temp have on the ady? Last time I used 1.25g ady (original recipe called for 1g idy)  it more than doubled but came out ok.

This time I used 1.1g, but stupidly dissolved it in tepid water! It's risen way faster and had to punch it down.

This will me my first attempt with the added vwg fingers crossed.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1102 on: October 28, 2016, 09:38:46 AM »
How much of an effect does the water temp have on the ady?
MadMatt,

Technically (according to yeast producers), ADY is preferably prehydrated in a small amount of water (about four or five times the weight of the ADY) at about 105 degrees F (40.6 degrees C) for about 10 minutes. But that is a rule that is often violated. From what I have come to understand, even Papa John's violates that rule by using the ADY dry (no prehydration) in its dough. The reason is that their dough has to last for about five to eight days of cold fermentation. There are even some PJ stores that cheat and squeeze another day out of the dough. I'm sure that PJ's manuals require the workers in their stores to discard the dough once it reaches a certain age.

To the above, and to answer your question more directly, if the water of prehydration is at too low a temperature, it will negatively affect ADY performance. This is discussed in the article Dry Yeast Rehydration at:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF

Another point to keep in mind is that ADY was developed for home use, after America entered World War II (see http://www.breadworld.com/history), and the above prehydration protocol was intended to insure that home bakers succeeded in making their baked goods. Once IDY was invented, many bakers, both home bakers and professional bakers, abandoned ADY in favor of IDY. Today, I would say that among professionals at least, the predominant form of yeast is fresh yeast or IDY. In my reverse engineering and cloning efforts in this thread, I intentionally chose to use IDY to avoid the kinds of problems that can arise in using ADY. I just adjusted the amount of IDY to be functionally equivalent to ADY in terms of performance.

Peter


Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1103 on: October 28, 2016, 12:35:40 PM »
Thanks for the info on ADY Pete, I think I'll try IDY as I'm nearly out of ADY anyway. 

As tasty as the pizza was, it looks nothing like yours I've nearly given up hope.

Apart from my cruddy oven, could overworking the dough cause it?

I'm having real issues trying to shape the dough and getting it on the screen it always looks a mess. I keep trying to shape it, then when I failed balled it and restarted again... 



Offline wrightme

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1104 on: October 28, 2016, 12:35:58 PM »
Is there any benefit to using ADY vs IDY?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1105 on: October 28, 2016, 01:32:07 PM »
Thanks for the info on ADY Pete, I think I'll try IDY as I'm nearly out of ADY anyway. 

As tasty as the pizza was, it looks nothing like yours I've nearly given up hope.

Apart from my cruddy oven, could overworking the dough cause it?

I'm having real issues trying to shape the dough and getting it on the screen it always looks a mess. I keep trying to shape it, then when I failed balled it and restarted again...
MadMatt,

If you overworked/overkneaded the dough, that could have made it difficult to open it up and form a skin (base). Also, if you reballed the dough just before opening it up to form a base, then that could have made it very difficult to open up because it was too elastic. If you can explain how you made and managed the dough, and if you can post a few photos, that might help better diagnose your problem.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1106 on: October 28, 2016, 01:42:34 PM »
Is there any benefit to using ADY vs IDY?
wrightme,

Because ADY has a large percentage of dead yeast cells, there are some people who like that. One such members who indicated that preference is member November, who posted on that preference at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030#msg34030.

I don't recall exactly why November liked the dead cells in ADY but it is possible that the dead cells make the dough softer. I also know he said that he liked the taste of yeast in his crust, but that was not limited to ADY. I also seem to recall that he said that dead yeast had possible value as nutrients, possibly for the live yeast cells.

Another possible benefit of ADY is that it can be added directly to the flour. However, to rehydrate it you need water at a temperature of around 120-130 degrees F. The downside of doing that, of course, is that you can end up with a finished dough temperature that is too high.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1107 on: November 03, 2016, 06:31:47 PM »
  "Another possible benefit of ADY is that it can be added directly to the flour." Pete did you mean IDY instead of ADY? I thought that was a no, no, in most instances.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1108 on: November 03, 2016, 07:18:46 PM »
  "Another possible benefit of ADY is that it can be added directly to the flour." Pete did you mean IDY instead of ADY? I thought that was a no, no, in most instances.
Nick,

No, I meant ADY. If you look under TRADITIONAL BAKING at the Red Star website at http://redstaryeast.com/yeast-baking-lessons/yeast-types-usage/active-dry-yeast/, you will see that ADY can be added directly to dry ingredients. But you have to use water (or other liquid) at around 120-130 degrees F to rehydrate the ADY. Some bakers like to expedite the rehydration of the ADY by mixing it in with the flour and letting the moisture content of the flour start to act on the ADY before adding the warm water.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1109 on: November 04, 2016, 09:20:18 AM »
Thanks for the info Pete!

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1110 on: November 06, 2016, 07:33:44 AM »
I've used ady with just room temp water and it's come out fine. Especially with the hand kneading it warms it all up.   Just measure out the water (I usually just use filtered water) add the ady to it, stir it and prepare other ingredients like flour then add it.

Once I finish using the ady i'll give idy a try.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1111 on: November 28, 2016, 03:58:54 PM »
A new member, pizzahelpme, recently posted in another thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45735.msg458395#msg458395 on his love for Papa John's breadsticks. He had tried a recipe he found on the Internet but I thought that he might want to try a version that was more like the real PJ breadsticks. His timing was very good because I recently stopped by a PJ store near me to ask a worker some questions about their breadsticks. More specifically, I wanted to know what dough ball weight was used to make the breadsticks, how many breadsticks could be made from the skin, and if there was any scrap left over after cutting the breadsticks out of the skin. The reason I wanted the answers is because I had seen conflicting information on these matters over the course of this thread.

For those who are interested, my post to pizzahelpme can be seen at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45735.msg458400#new.

In the abovereferenced post, I also cover Cheesesticks and Garlic Parmesan Breadsticks.

Peter


Offline Hermit

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1112 on: November 29, 2016, 07:29:41 PM »
Peter, can you give me any advice on how to keep that rim the right proportions on a 16" PJ clone dough when stretching it?  I assume I want to keep rim from flattening too much like what we may see in thinner crust pizzas?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1113 on: November 29, 2016, 07:56:08 PM »
Peter, can you give me any advice on how to keep that rim the right proportions on a 16" PJ clone dough when stretching it?  I assume I want to keep rim from flattening too much like what we may see in thinner crust pizzas?
Hermit,

The best I can offer you is to take a look at Replies 747-749 starting at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482. There is an inoperative link in Reply 747 that I could not find in the archives of the Wayback Machine but I think the issue of edge-lock is explained elsewhere in that reply.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1114 on: November 30, 2016, 02:27:58 PM »
Thanks Peter!  Here's my 2nd attempt at a PJ Clone dough, this one is 16" pepperoni.  Sauce was my normal NY style sauce but added in a 4 cheese blend and mozerella plus some parmesean and sliced hormel pepperoni.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1115 on: November 30, 2016, 03:27:25 PM »
Hermit,

That's a good looking pizza. But you are too stingy with the pepperoni for a 16" PJ clone. When I played around with the PJ 14" (large) pepperoni clones, I used 44 pepperoni slices (mostly Hormel). That was based on actual large PJ pepperoni pizzas. That number also seems to be borne out by the photo below that I took off of a review of the large PJ pepperoni pizza shown. If PJ were to extrapolate proportionally to a 16" (XL) pizza, they would use about 59 pepperoni slices. You appear to have used 16 slices. But at least they didn't decide to all meet in the middle and have a party. The PJ pepperoni slices are like sardines in a can, if I can borrow that metaphor, LOL

I am just teasing you. You have been doing a great job making clones and other types of pizzas, seemingly without effort or huge mistakes or mishaps.

Peter

Offline pepapi

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1116 on: November 30, 2016, 03:28:11 PM »
Here's last night's effort, which I believe is probably attempt 4 for the Papa John's 2 clone.  For this one, I found a much better pepperoni that I am VERY happy about (Marc Angelo pepperoni) and my go to mozza which is Saputo Deluxe Mozza only found at Costco (22% MF, 48% moisture).  This is my typical recipe below but in the effort of full disclosure here it is again with my notes:

This recipe is the Pete-zza Papa John's 2 day clone with dustinator blend for bench flour (semolina & flour).  Here is my condensed version, makes 1 14" round pizza with no bowl residue compensation:
Flour (100%): 339.29 g | 11.97 oz
Water (56%): 190 g | 6.7 oz
IDY (0.28%): 0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0.32 tsp
Salt (1.9%): 6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 1.16 tsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%): 18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 4.15 tsp
Sugar (5.89%): 19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 5.01 tsp
Total (169.62%): 575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs
2 day fermentation, if 3 days, reduce IDY to 0.25%

Place the water, at 65 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of stand mixer
Add the salt, sugar and stir to dissolve, about 1 minute.
Add the oil to the mixer
With flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the sifted flour to the bowl. I did this until all of the flour was roughly incorporated and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute or two.
Scrape the dough off of the paddle attachment (it was shaggy and on the sticky side) and replace the paddle attachment with the C-hook and knead the dough mass, at stir speed, for about 1-2 minutes, to allow the oil to be completely incorporated into the dough mass.
Sprinkle yeast over the dough mass, and knead at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. At the end of that time, the dough will be sticky and soft.  With an additional minute of hand kneading, and without adding any additional bench flour, that stickiness will disappear and the dough will be smooth, soft and supple.  Place ball in a lightly oiled plastic or glass container (1L is probably ok) and refrigerate for 2 days.

Preheat oven for 500, with pizza stone or steel if you have it and let dough sit in container on counter for 30 minutes.  Form dough by hand with bench flour to 14" and place on screen/pan and dress with sauce/cheese/toppings.

Bake at 500 for about 8-9 mins.  I find that the best place in my gas oven (Bluestar 36" for reference) is the 2nd rack from the bottom, convection is good too and makes the cheese perfect at the 9 or 10 minute mark.  At around 8 or 9 minutes, check the bottom to see if you want to pop it on the pizza steel for some extra crisp, say another 1 or 2 minutes.

If you are going to put some hard cheese on the pizza, put it under the mozza so it doesn't scorch.  I find the hard cheeses always add that extra something to the pizzas.

I would be happy to answer any questions on the above if I missed something.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1117 on: November 30, 2016, 03:46:08 PM »
pepapi,

You did a terrific job, and you did a nice job writing up your effort. Member like that since everything you did, including your recipe and instructions, are all in one post.

If someone showed my your photos and said that they were taken of real PJ pizzas, I would have believed them, even though they are a two-day version. It is particularly noteworthy in your case because you are in Canada and may not have easy access to the flours and other ingredients used in the U.S. PJ has a bit over 100 stores in Canada, including 21 stores in the province Ontario, which I assume you may have visited at some time, but I don't know what source they use for their flours. Can you tell us which flour you used? And did the pizzas go over well with everyone, including the kids?

Peter



Offline Hermit

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1118 on: November 30, 2016, 04:37:01 PM »
Hermit,

That's a good looking pizza. But you are too stingy with the pepperoni for a 16" PJ clone. When I played around with the PJ 14" (large) pepperoni clones, I used 44 pepperoni slices (mostly Hormel). That was based on actual large PJ pepperoni pizzas. That number also seems to be borne out by the photo below that I took off of a review of the large PJ pepperoni pizza shown. If PJ were to extrapolate proportionally to a 16" (XL) pizza, they would use about 59 pepperoni slices. You appear to have used 16 slices. But at least they didn't decide to all meet in the middle and have a party. The PJ pepperoni slices are like sardines in a can, if I can borrow that metaphor, LOL

I am just teasing you. You have been doing a great job making clones and other types of pizzas, seemingly without effort or huge mistakes or mishaps.

Peter

Thanks Peter!  It's been fun making all these pizzas, PJ is my favorite delivery pizza chain.  Ya know, when I looked at the pizza I thought it looked a little stingy with the pepp too  ;D  I sliced em thick so that's around 3oz of hormel pepp.  I docked the dough with a fork prior to topping as I was worried that I might have had some bubbles in the middle of the pie form due to the amount of rise I got during RT ferment this morning.

I did watch that video you linked for me, wow those guys are rough on their dough.  I couldnt bring myself to do anything with it other than form the rim, stretch the middle then gently dock it.

Offline pepapi

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1119 on: November 30, 2016, 09:00:12 PM »
pepapi,

You did a terrific job, and you did a nice job writing up your effort. Member like that since everything you did, including your recipe and instructions, are all in one post.

If someone showed my your photos and said that they were taken of real PJ pizzas, I would have believed them, even though they are a two-day version. It is particularly noteworthy in your case because you are in Canada and may not have easy access to the flours and other ingredients used in the U.S. PJ has a bit over 100 stores in Canada, including 21 stores in the province Ontario, which I assume you may have visited at some time, but I don't know what source they use for their flours. Can you tell us which flour you used? And did the pizzas go over well with everyone, including the kids?

Peter

My go to flour is Robin Hood Bread Flour as that's all I can really get (I do have Caputo 00 but don't use it for this style).  Impossible to get Trumps or KA or the others you guys talk about, I've tried, believe me.  I need to put more pepperonis on there as well, they always look well saturated but end up spacing out substantially.  The pizzas always go well with everyone :)  I tend to invite different people over when I do these pizzas now just to share the love.

What difference in taste or other factors would moving to the 5 day fermentation provide? 

Thanks for the kind words too, means a lot coming from you.  I wouldn't be able to make these delicious pizzas without your help.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1120 on: November 30, 2016, 10:02:35 PM »
My go to flour is Robin Hood Bread Flour as that's all I can really get (I do have Caputo 00 but don't use it for this style).  Impossible to get Trumps or KA or the others you guys talk about, I've tried, believe me.  I need to put more pepperonis on there as well, they always look well saturated but end up spacing out substantially.  The pizzas always go well with everyone :)  I tend to invite different people over when I do these pizzas now just to share the love.

What difference in taste or other factors would moving to the 5 day fermentation provide? 

Thanks for the kind words too, means a lot coming from you.  I wouldn't be able to make these delicious pizzas without your help.
pepapi,

I think the Robin Hood bread flour is a good choice for the dough formulation you used. It has a protein content of 13%, which compares with 12.7% for the King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) that I used for a lot of my experiments and versions as discussed in this thread. Originally, PJ said that it used a high gluten flour. Subsequently, they stopped saying that the flour was a high gluten flour. Instead they said that it was a high protein flour. I originally thought that maybe they went to a flour with a lower protein content. But later it dawned on me that maybe they just wanted to get away from using the term gluten, because there were people who felt that they had some kind of sensitivity to gluten and maybe were staying away from foods with gluten, and even worse, foods with high gluten. Also, the gluten-free trend was starting to grow and to firmly take hold. However, I eventually got to talk to a specialist at PJ (Diane Helms), and in the course of our conversation I asked Diane about the protein content of the PJ flour. I specifically mentioned that at one time PJs promoted their flour as being a "high-gluten" flour. She said that that was still true. When I said that to me "high gluten" meant around 14% protein, she said "Well, it isn't quite that high". It is very difficult to determine the protein content of flour from Nutrition Facts because of the way that the FDA requires that protein be reported. But from other nutrients whose values I could ascertain, I believe that a protein content of around 13.3-13.6% should be a good range. But I think I would stay away from All Trumps and other high gluten flours with about the same protein content (around 14-14.3%).

As for the difference between a 5-8 day PJ clone and a 2-day PJ clone, I think both are very good choices. However, what I discovered is that it is hard for most people to replicate the PJ dough with a standard home refrigerator. In PJ's case, their dough as prepared at one of its commissaries is kept refrigerated at a certain temperature or narrow range of temperatures from the time the dough leaves the commissary until it reaches the PJ stores and then kept in coolers in the store. In a home refrigerator setting, it is hard to replicate that temperature regimen. So, the results may be prone to a fair amount of variation, which can include failure or sub-par results. By contrast, a two-day regimen is pretty easy to achieve. The recipe you used is a bit different than the original two-day formulation I came up with but I believe that the differences are not going to be dramatic and particularly noticeable in the finished product. But this is how I described the results when I came up with the version at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217:

I was extremely pleased with the way the pizza turned out. The crust was a little thicker than a standard PJ pizza crust, but only slightly, and the pizza exhibited most of the characteristics of a standard PJ pizza. The size, shape, and weight were very close to a standard PJ pizza, and even its appearance was quite close, mainly because of the cheese on the rim and the overall coloration of the rim. The crust was chewy and the crumb was soft and tender. The level of sweetness of the crust was closer to the original than I have achieved before. Even the leftover slices were delicious. Unfortunately, I did not have a real PJ pizza on hand to do a more careful comparison, but based on memory, the latest pizza was a good approximation of a real PJ pizza. I would even rate it as highly as the first successful PJ clone pizza described and shown in Reply 2. And the best part is that the dough can be made and used in a two-day period.

In your case, if you are intrigued about a 5-8 day PJ clone, you can try using the formulation you used but decrease the amount of yeast by about half and increase the amount of salt to 1.9%. You may have to tweak the formula hydration a bit to keep the total dough ball weight to around 20 ounces give or take a fraction of an ounce. I don't recall that anyone has done that to date.

I'm glad that you are enjoying the PJ clones. The original 2-day formulation and your 2-day formulations are easy to make in my opinion, and are among the most popular versions of the PJ dough. PJ itself cannot offer those versions because they are stuck with their commissaries and they would have to make more trips to their stores on a weekly basis. At present, PJ makes deliveries twice a week.

Peter



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1121 on: December 01, 2016, 01:13:49 PM »
Excellent reply as always, thank you.  I had tried it (5 day clone) once upon a time but I forgot what it turned out like.  One question I have for you though, is how do i make a more tender rim?  I can competently shape the skins now and have no issues getting it nice and round with a decent rim but it's sometimes a bit on the tougher/denser side.  Am I overworking the rim?  I also suspect that my 1 year old IDY is starting to degrade somewhat and I think might be why I barely got any big bubbles this time, whereas I normally have to dough dock it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1122 on: December 01, 2016, 03:20:30 PM »
Excellent reply as always, thank you.  I had tried it (5 day clone) once upon a time but I forgot what it turned out like.  One question I have for you though, is how do i make a more tender rim?  I can competently shape the skins now and have no issues getting it nice and round with a decent rim but it's sometimes a bit on the tougher/denser side.  Am I overworking the rim?  I also suspect that my 1 year old IDY is starting to degrade somewhat and I think might be why I barely got any big bubbles this time, whereas I normally have to dough dock it.
pepapi,

It helps not to overwork the rim once it has been formed. In the PJ stores, workers use dockers and they don't confine the docking to the area inside the rim. They just steamroll over the entire skin, including the rim. I question the logic of doing that since it can flatten the rim and have it riddled with holes. In a home setting, you can just dock inside the rim. In fact, you may not have to dock at all. If I were to guess, I would say that using a docker at PJ stores is an obligatory step for all doughs because a fair number of dough balls are used to make skins when they have not fermented sufficiently. So, rather than training members to decide when docking is needed, they tell the workers to dock all skins. In your case, you might want to take a look at the post I directed to member Hermit at Reply 1113 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg458574#msg458574 since that post is directed to the way that PJ forms the rims of their skins.

If the measures discussed in Reply 1113 and the links referenced therein do not help you, then you might want to try the original 2-day version of the PJ clone at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217 because that version has more oil and sugar in the formulation, and both the oil and the sugar act as tenderizers of the crust (the oil impedes evaporation of the moisture in the dough and the sugar is a hygroscopic substance that retains moisture in the dough).

Another possibility is to increase the formula hydration but for each increase of a percent in the hydration you may want to lower the amount of oil by an equal amount, and tweak the formulation a bit, if needed, to keep the dough ball weight at around 20 ounces.  As an alternative, if you are able to increase the oven temperature and bake the pizza in a shorter period of time, that should help keep the entire crust softer, but you may have to take other measures if the bottom crust is too light or the cheese is underbaked on the top side or the rim is too light. But using a screen, you can move the pizza around the oven to fix those problems, and you can also use the broiler to fix problems at the top side of the pizza. I discussed these kinds of measures in another thread at Reply 45 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965.

As for your yeast, whether it is still viable will depend on how you stored the yeast. The older the yeast gets, and/or if it is not stored in the optimum way, there will be some degradation of the yeast's performance. However, sometimes using more yeast will compensate for that underperformance. But, if in doubt, you may just want to use new yeast. But, either way, I would be surprised if the toughness of the rim was due to the yeast.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1123 on: December 01, 2016, 03:51:12 PM »
pepapi,

It helps not to overwork the rim once it has been formed. In the PJ stores, workers use dockers and they don't confine the docking to the area inside the rim. They just steamroll over the entire skin, including the rim. I question the logic of doing that since it can flatten the rim and have it riddled with holes. In a home setting, you can just dock inside the rim. In fact, you may not have to dock at all. If I were to guess, I would say that using a docker at PJ stores is an obligatory step for all doughs because a fair number of dough balls are used to make skins when they have not fermented sufficiently. So, rather than training members to decide when docking is needed, they tell the workers to dock all skins. In your case, you might want to take a look at the post I directed to member Hermit at Reply 1113 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg458574#msg458574 since that post is directed to the way that PJ forms the rims of their skins.

If the measures discussed in Reply 1113 and the links referenced therein do not help you, then you might want to try the original 2-day version of the PJ clone at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217 because that version has more oil and sugar in the formulation, and both the oil and the sugar act as tenderizers of the crust (the oil impedes evaporation of the moisture in the dough and the sugar is a hygroscopic substance that retains moisture in the dough).

Another possibility is to increase the formula hydration but for each increase of a percent in the hydration you may want to lower the amount of oil by an equal amount, and tweak the formulation a bit, if needed, to keep the dough ball weight at around 20 ounces.  As an alternative, if you are able to increase the oven temperature and bake the pizza in a shorter period of time, that should help keep the entire crust softer, but you may have to take other measures if the bottom crust is too light or the cheese is underbaked on the top side or the rim is too light. But using a screen, you can move the pizza around the oven to fix those problems, and you can also use the broiler to fix problems at the top side of the pizza. I discussed these kinds of measures in another thread at Reply 45 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965.

As for your yeast, whether it is still viable will depend on how you stored the yeast. The older the yeast gets, and/or if it is not stored in the optimum way, there will be some degradation of the yeast's performance. However, sometimes using more yeast will compensate for that underperformance. But, if in doubt, you may just want to use new yeast. But, either way, I would be surprised if the toughness of the rim was due to the yeast.

Peter

Excellent post as usual, a wealth of information.

Also, pizza steel.  I have a 1/4" steel but have hesitated to use it for the entire bake (just at the end).  Will the amount of sugar just wreck the bottom if i try to get the steel to 550 or similar (oven goes to 500 but i have a very powerful broiler that might push it to 550 or 600 if needed)?  I could maybe try a 5 minute bake on the steel at 500 and then transfer to screen for the rest, with convection to get the toppings up to par and maybe having the pizza up higher in the oven, again to compensate for the bottom cooking quicker on the steel than the top.

I have definitely felt the need to dough dock this one in the past, and I know I make it identically everytime, so I think I'm throwing out that yeast regardless and getting a new one.

How's this for the recipe?  Looks like less sugar but more oil.

Robin Hood Bread Flour (100%):355.4 g  |  12.54 oz
Water (56.5%):200.8 g  |  7.08 oz
IDY (0.28%):1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp
Salt (1.75%):6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp
Vegetable (sunflower) Oil (7.3%):25.94 g | 0.92 oz | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Sugar (4.2%):14.93 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.74 tsp
Total (170.03%):604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs

In comparison to the one I just did:

Robin Hood Bread Flour (100%): 339.29 g | 11.97 oz
Water (56%): 190 g | 6.7 oz
IDY (0.28%): 0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0.32 tsp
Salt (1.9%): 6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 1.16 tsp
Vegetable (sunflower) Oil (5.55%): 18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 4.15 tsp
Sugar (5.89%): 19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 5.01 tsp
Total (169.62%): 575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1124 on: December 01, 2016, 05:17:15 PM »
pepapi,

I can recall only one member talking about using a steel, but I don't recall that he mentioned the thickness or whether he actually used it to make a PJ clone. However, I don't believe that it is the optimum substrate or carrier to use to make a PJ clone because of the high amount of yeast and the possibility that the bottom crust will become burned before the rest of the pizza is done. Of course, you could watch the bottom like a hawk and once the bottom has the desired color move the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat. By the time you would make that move, the pizza should be well set. You would also be able to use the broiler. If you ever decide to give the above approach a try, please tell us how the pizza turned out. Because I was trying to clone a PJ dough and pizza, I used screens. However, we have had a few members who have used pizza stones, and my advice has been to watch the bottom very carefully so that it does not burn, again because of the high sugar level.

Looking at the two dough formulations you posted, they appear to be correct. You are also correct that the first formulation has more sugar. In arriving at that version, I used an ingredients statement from PJ that indicated that there was more sugar in the dough than oil. That ingredients statement was not an official one under the U.S. FDA (Food and Drug Administration) rules and regulations but the statement was all that I had. But I could not conclude that there was actually more sugar than oil in the PJ dough when I analyzed the Nutritional Information that PJ posted at its website. The Sugar nutrient in dough is tricky because it includes not only sugar that is added to the dough but also natural Sugars that are created during fermentation. The reporting requirements are about to change if the FDA has its way since new regulations will require that the ingredient statements indicate what sugars are actually added to the product in question. Companies that add a lot of sugar to their products are not happy with this change because they don't want to highlight to their consumers exactly how much sugar they are getting, especially since sugar is now considered a nutritional villain and viewed as the cause of a lot of our medical problems.

You will also note that the dough weight in the first formulation you posted is around 21 ounces. That was the best number I could come up with when I originally posted the formulation. It was later that I learned from an article that Norma found that the actual amount of dough was 20 ounces (for the 14" size) give or take a fraction of an ounce (most likely due to manufacturing tolerances). So, if you want to try that formulation, you might want to use the expanded dough calculating tool but use a dough ball weight of 20 ounces plus any suitable bowl residue compensation value. But, that said, I really don't think you will notice the difference, and especially if you do not use a bowl residue compensation.

The second dough formulation you posted does indeed have more sugar than oil, and now conforms to the original PJ ingredients statement. But, for the reasons mentioned above, the separation of the added sugar quantitatively from the total Sugars as given in the PJ Nutritional Information is still hard to ascertain. But, based on current information, I believe that the second dough formulation is closer to the real thing (but for the yeast quantity) than the first dough formulation you posted in your last post.

Peter