Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ? (Read 106213 times)

thezaman · « **on:** July 02, 2009, 05:22:39 PM »

Looking at getting training and doing a Neapolitan style pizzeria within the next two years .I am looking at training with a Neapolitan pizza maker and have an idea of that cost.I just don't have any idea of what i need to budget for the oven .

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2009, 06:36:55 PM »

Zaman, part of that depends on the exchange rate, port and size of oven, but plan on 10-15K if you are loooking at marcos ovens of choice, forno napolentano. I want one too! -marc

thezaman · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:18:04 PM »

I am looking at one to two years down the road.There is so much to learn about true Neapolitan pizza.I have been to IL pizzaiolo in pittsburgh twice and crave his product.I know he has many years of knowledge and that is why his product is so darn good.I am trying to put together a business plan and gaining as much product knowledge as possible.

shango · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:59:32 PM »

There are many variables to consider. Plan on the most expensive American product, and hope it comes in less...

Mo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2009, 07:06:48 PM »

Mugnaini and forno bravos both run about $11,000 for a 120 cm oven. Woodstone is about $17,000 for a similar size and is not a great wood only performer. I talked to Marco about his ovens but never got around to cost. Mugnaini imports the Valoriani ovens which are used successfully in many commercial Neapolitan applications. Check the websites of mugnaini and forno bravo, they have commercial oven prices listed...

David · « **Reply #5 on:** July 07, 2009, 09:13:11 PM »

Quote from: Mo on July 07, 2009, 07:06:48 PM

Mugnaini imports the Valoriani ovens which are used successfully in many commercial Neapolitan applications.

"true Neapolitan" pizza ovens have a low dome,are hand built with very specific materials and should not be confused with other modular fabricated / mass produced wood burning ovens.If you need a benchmark example,the oven at Spaccanapoli in Chicago is probably the finest (and most beautiful ) one I've had the chance to experience in the USA.The only person I know that has first hand experience of cooking with nearly all of the Neapolitan oven builders represented in the USA is Roberto @ Keste in New York,he's likely the one best to give an un-biased opinion as I know he has himself purchased and used so many.Good luck,
David

Mo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2009, 09:38:10 PM »

Quote from: David on July 07, 2009, 09:13:11 PM

"true Neapolitan" pizza ovens have a low dome,are hand built with very specific materials and should not be confused with other modular fabricated / mass produced wood burning ovens.If you need a benchmark example,the oven at Spaccanapoli in Chicago is probably the finest (and most beautiful ) one I've had the chance to experience in the USA.The only person I know that has first hand experience of cooking with nearly all of the Neapolitan oven builders represented in the USA is Roberto @ Keste in New York,he's likely the one best to give an un-biased opinion as I know he has himself purchased and used so many.Good luck,
David

I'm sure one could debate the phrase "true Neapolitan" oven for some time with no objective conclusion. Suffice to say, for a commercial "Neapolitan-style" application the manufacturers/importers I've mentioned are more than adequate and have been approved by VPN in many establishments in the US. Personally, I think it a bit dogmatic and myopic to dismiss equipment that has been used to produce "authentic" Neapolitan style pizza for some time in this country. One must draw the "authenticity" line somwhere. For example, if we are in this country we are not in Naples. Nor is everyone that produces Neapolitan pizza a Neapolitan by birth, heritage or citizenship. Surely we can agree that claims to authenticity are highly subjective and in and of themselves, don't do much to further the discussion of how to make great pizza.

David · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2009, 11:49:37 PM »

Quote from: Mo on March 10, 2009, 05:32:09 PM

To be honest, most of our patrons were happy with what we've been doing up to this point, and haven't noticed or commented on a difference. I think the distinctions I have been making here have gone largely unnoticed. Having said that, all of our guests have been very positive about our efforts and have enjoyed the addition of a wood-fired pizza oven to their club. To us bunch of enthusiasts, the results might look quite different, but not necessarily so for the untrained eye. We have had good success using upscale ingredients and thoughtful methods to try and recreate an authentic-seeming experience.

Sorry if I misinterpreted the heading of this thread .I was not dismissing any ovens for pizza making,merely pointing out some of the critical differences with what many consider to be a true Neapolitan oven.I'm sure you would also equally debate Neapolitan pizza / Neapolitan style pizza.If I go shopping for a Harley Davidson and a salesman tells me the Yamaha is practically the same,I feel more comfortable knowing the differences for myself and with such an important investment why I should chose one over another.From reading your other comments It is clear that we obviously draw our lines at different points and you are seemingly satisfied with the outcome.There is nothing wrong with compromise as long as you understand why you are making it and your customers are not misled in any way.To be honest, most of your patrons might not have a clue as to what you've been doing up to this point,but I'm sure that as a professional you wouldn't let your standards diminish because they haven't noticed or commented?
Maybe frozen dough in a gas assisted oven is the way to go and I've just been banging my head against the wall for twenty years.

scpizza · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2009, 08:41:51 AM »

Note however, the oven itself is not the only cost to going woodburning. External venting, if not in a 1-story building, will cost more than the oven. Upgrading the floor support beams if the existing floor can't handle the weight will cost more than the oven.

Mo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2009, 10:04:28 AM »

Quote from: David on July 07, 2009, 11:49:37 PM

Sorry if I misinterpreted the heading of this thread .I was not dismissing any ovens for pizza making,merely pointing out some of the critical differences with what many consider to be a true Neapolitan oven.I'm sure you would also equally debate Neapolitan pizza / Neapolitan style pizza.If I go shopping for a Harley Davidson and a salesman tells me the Yamaha is practically the same,I feel more comfortable knowing the differences for myself and with such an important investment why I should chose one over another.From reading your other comments It is clear that we obviously draw our lines at different points and you are seemingly satisfied with the outcome.There is nothing wrong with compromise as long as you understand why you are making it and your customers are not misled in any way.To be honest, most of your patrons might not have a clue as to what you've been doing up to this point,but I'm sure that as a professional you wouldn't let your standards diminish because they haven't noticed or commented?
Maybe frozen dough in a gas assisted oven is the way to go and I've just been banging my head against the wall for twenty years.

I apologize if I responded a bit harshly, admittedly I know little (about pizza or else). However, I would very much like to know the technical differences between Mugnaini Modena model and another "true neapolitan" oven. All I seem to hear from different people are marketing buzz words like "mass-produced" and "beware of imitators". These phrases do not point to tangible technical differences. If you could elucidate these distinctions, I would be grateful. Again, if the VPN has verified establishments with these ovens, is that good enough to claim authenticity or is the VPN too, suspect?

As far as Harley vs Yamaha, a better analogy might have been "I want a classic big-bore V-twin touring cycle", then you would have to decide what constitutes "classic", "V twin" and "touring". A Harley is manufactured by Harley, Yamaha by Yamaha, a relatively simple distinction to make. Personally, I prefer
70s SOHC Hondas, but that's a different discussion...

David · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2009, 10:14:23 AM »

It's been hashed out in previous threads,but the way it vents/draws,materials ,balance.fuel efficiency,recovery,dimensions etc are all points that should be considered.I was over simplistic with my analogy.I expect you'll make up your own mind about VPN and it's strengths and weaknesses as you learn more I presume.

Mo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2009, 01:43:02 PM »

Quote from: David on July 08, 2009, 10:14:23 AM

It's been hashed out in previous threads,but the way it vents/draws,materials ,balance.fuel efficiency,recovery,dimensions etc are all points that should be considered.I was over simplistic with my analogy.I expect you'll make up your own mind about VPN and it's strengths and weaknesses as you learn more I presume.

I don't understand this response. You are apparently willing to look up a three month old post of mine to quote but you won't give a detailed answer to a specific question? I am starting to believe that some enthusiasts on this board are more concerned with appearing to be "in the know" than actually helping people by providing solid information culled from experience and knowledge. I am not implying that you don't have the experience to back you statements (although you seem to try to question mine) but how about some actual analysis? I'm not trying to be divisive or confrontational but you've yet to say why the Mugnaini or Forno Bravo ovens are inferior but continue to imply that they are.

pcampbell · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2009, 02:41:16 PM »

If the goal is VPN certification OK, they can require whatever they want. The OP said a "true Neapolitan oven" so maybe certification is desired.

I don't think it takes Italian materials or an Italian to build a great wood fired oven. Whether any of the commercially available ovens do this, I don't know. I think there's a lot of factors from dome height, diameter, dome ceiling thickness, floor thickness, amount of insulation. If you get all of that right...

It is no different than saying it doesn't take Ernesto Colnago to build an amazing bicycle...... sure it will never be a Colnago, but it could outperform one. Same thing goes with Ferrari. Ducati. etc.

David · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2009, 09:56:37 PM »

Quote from: Mo on July 08, 2009, 01:43:02 PM

I don't understand this response. You are apparently willing to look up a three month old post of mine to quote but you won't give a detailed answer to a specific question?

I don't spend nearly as much time on the forum as I once did so am not familiar with you or your posting history.To get a better insight of your questions,I took the trouble to quickly read your past posts.
I see no point in duplicating information and cluttering the boards.If you take the time to do some searches within the limited parameters of wood fired ovens on this this forum alone,you will be amazed at how much you can garner.I really do not comprehend how you read my comments again as being dismissive,when I was merely pointing out some points to consider when choosing or comparing various wood burning ovens to specifically a Neapolitan wood burning oven.
Again,I'm trying to follow the original header in this thread.AFAIK a "True Neapolitan Oven" uses mostly materials not readily available in this country (with the possible exception of Tufa block?) I don't doubt that the skills needed to build one could eventually be acquired by anyone if they were so inclined,regardless of nationality.I make pizza and I'm not Italian.

At what point did I question your experience?

Quote from: Mo on July 07, 2009, 09:38:10 PM

I'm sure one could debate the phrase "true Neapolitan" oven for some time with no objective conclusion. Suffice to say, for a commercial "Neapolitan-style" application the manufacturers/importers I've mentioned are more than adequate and have been approved by VPN in many establishments in the US. Personally, I think it a bit dogmatic and myopic to dismiss equipment that has been used to produce "authentic" Neapolitan style pizza for some time in this country. One must draw the "authenticity" line somwhere. For example, if we are in this country we are not in Naples. Nor is everyone that produces Neapolitan pizza a Neapolitan by birth, heritage or citizenship. Surely we can agree that claims to authenticity are highly subjective and in and of themselves, don't do much to further the discussion of how to make great pizza.

I assume that this was derived from your experience?You sound thoroughly confident and convinced with your point of view Mo.

Mo · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2009, 11:07:27 PM »

David, I only took issue with your implication that Mugnaini ovens are not "true Neapolitan ovens" without providing some reasons why. I have read endless posts and talked to several companies (including forno napoletano) and I am still baffled by some of the distinctions being made. Perhaps this is due to my ignorance. I have use a wood only woodstone and would not recommend it for high temp Neapolitan style pizzas. My direct experience with wood burning oven is limited to the woodstone. I continually worked it above recommnded temps to get the result I was looking for. I am buying a Mugnaini oven for a commercial application and am excited about the prospect. While there is some technical data offered when comparing ovens/companies, I find a lot of what has been offered on this site is no more than individual opinion and subjective, dubious claims to authenticity (the "true" keepers of the faith, if you will).

If the OP wants the same oven as Il pizzaillo, then he should get it. If the OP wants pricing for Italianade wood burning pizza ovens then my original answer stands. If the OP (if he is still listening) wants to clarify his aims ("true Neapolitan oven") then I am listening.

JConk007 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 08, 2009, 11:15:41 PM »

Wow , intersting thread. Now I want a Harley

I like the $10-15,000 answer better. I have a mass produced kit oven earthstone (very satisfied with the results) that I make true VPN pizzas in, is it a true Neapolitan oven? I Dont really know or care. I do know what that style I chose cost me to build . see my pics? The grand total no more than $5000.00 complete (and some serious sweat time) I was quoted around $15,000 thats why I chose to attack it myself. This oven is for personal use. In a commercial setting these ovens are forced to run at extreme temperatures for extended amount of time and on a dialy basis Honestly I dont know the lifespan or true capabilities. Maybe PMQ has a thread for commercial woodfired ovens where they are not just opinions but real facts? I am here for the passion and fun of it only at this time. I do know Bill /sfnm has the same oven for 7 years? burning 5 times a week ? right Bill? However After being on these board for a while I know that If money was no object I would have Marco build me a "true neapolitan" beauty or something like the baby bruno that was posted With my very limited knowledge thats a true neapolitan ovenhttp://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8340.msg76354.html#msg76354 maybe he could share a dollar figure with us?
Just my 2 pennies.
JOHN

Bill/CDMX · « **Reply #16 on:** July 08, 2009, 11:52:49 PM »

Quote from: JConk007 on July 08, 2009, 11:15:41 PM

I do know Bill /sfnm has the same oven for 7 years? burning 5 times a week ? right Bill?

Maybe twice per week average over 7 years. I agree with your comments, John. Couldn't be happier with my Earthstone which produces great Neapolitan-style pies in a non-commercial setting even though it is not an authentic Neapolitan oven. But I have never used any other oven, so I have no basis for saying it might be better than some other. If I were building today, I would probably go with Marco's authentic oven if I could swing the cost. Or maybe I would try to get pftaylor to sell me the kit he designed which is the anti-authentic oven.

Bill/SFNM

PETE · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2009, 04:40:22 AM »

Bill, I agree with you (sorry I don't post that much, been a viewer for many years), I have worked with a couple of Fabricated Northern Italian ovens, and they are not even close to true Neopoltian ovens, as far as Marco's co. even Stefano Ferrara in Naples has no idea what special family makes his oven, and their family has been making ovens for close to 100 years. Marco contacted Ferrara a couple of years ago and wanted to represent their ovens, but things feel thru, and ever since he has been bad mouthing their ovens. I recently purchased an S.F. Allestimenti (and even Antimo Caputo raves about their ovens, I met him at the Las Vegas Pizza Expo), and I could not be happier with the service. Francesa (Stefano's wife), is the nicest lady in the world, and their ovens speak for themselves. I am curently in the process of opening a Naples style pizzeria in S. Cal (we have really bad pizza here), so the oven and my Pietroberto diving hands mixer are on the way. And I probably shouldn't even tell anyone, but this forum is the best knowledge of pizza info: Stefano Ferra Mobile ovens are now UL CERTIFIED in the U.S. ( I have been waiting for the last year). p.s. don't tell anyone. here is a pic of my baby BRUNO.

thezaman · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2009, 10:18:44 AM »

I am looking at this post with a lot of interest and i didn't realize i started it . I have looked into both forno bravo and magnaini neither have a vpn oven. magnaini claims they are close to an agreement with the vpn group out of California .I have two options I can do an outdoor oven at my existing restaurant or, do a true Neapolitan pizza restaurant in a free standing location.If i do an outdoor oven i will be happy with either of the above since it will be used for Neapolitan night once or twice a week. the only dimensions i want are the oven dome to floor to be correct for pizza cooking. magniani claims to have the Neapolitan pizza dimensions needed. Now this is based on my home cooking so all of you that have been at this longer than me help with my observations. I have a hard time getting the pizza toppings and top crust cooked before my bottom get over charred.If i get my deck to 750 degrees my pizza cooks in under 2 minutes and the bake is even. if i try to get the deck to 850 or higher the bottom burns before my top is baked enough.I think that is because the oven doesn't have the right dome height to bake pizza evenly. i noticed the smoke layer you see in a true Neapolitan oven is maybe 6 inches above the pizza ,in my oven it may be 10 or more inches.My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.

Bill/CDMX · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2009, 11:07:37 AM »

Quote from: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 10:18:44 AM

My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.

I would say based on my experience as an enthusiastic amateur that the distance between the deck and the dome is just one of many variables. The distribution of heat - convective, radiant, and conductive - needs to be balanced just right so that all parts of the pie reach perfection at the same time. The window of perfection in such high temps is very small and changes constantly, so along with having the "right" oven, the amount of experience required to put out a great product can not be under estimated. So regardless of what oven you acquire, expect to invest the dedication required to get the most out of it. I'll bet someone like Marco could produce a better pizza from a toaster than many of us could make in one of his ovens.

I do not have a "low dome" so I simply raise the pie to the top of the dome for a few seconds before removing it from the oven. This is easy and effective for my modest home efforts. Perhaps it isn't so convenient in a commercial, high-volume setting even though I have seen it done there.

Bill/SFNM