NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[Essen1]

Peter,

Very cool!

Thanks for the info. I use the KABF and Bob's Red Mill VWG so I'll check that out. I haven't started with the dough yet because last night I was making some sourdough pizzas for some friends here. But I'll get started on the Mack's clone today.

I plan on using a 24hr fermentation, cold-rise. Perhaps I should up the yeast amount to 0.3% then, instead of 0.2%?

[Pete-zza]

I was just wondering if there was some way I could mix this dough by hand and get the same results?

I also wanted to say while watching the piemen make the pizzas, it did seem like they added more cheese than I had originally thought.   I couldn't really tell how much, but it looked to be about 14 oz.

Norma,

If you will be using the Kyrol high-gluten flour, you should be able to hand knead the dough but because of the relatively low hydration, you may have to limit the number of dough balls you will be making and also use one or more rest periods to allow better hydration of the flour. The use of oil in the dough should help make it easier to knead the dough but, even then, it won't exactly be a day at the beach (to borrow a current phrase) to knead the dough. I think I would also sift the flour at the outset. If you find that the dough is too dry, you might want to add a bit more water to get the dough balls to a manageable stage. I think your Kyrol flour should be able to hydrate better than my KABF/VWG blend.

On the matter of the cheese, I was also thinking of about 14 ounces of cheese, or maybe a bit less. The next dough formulation I plan to use will make about 19.5 ounces of dough. Using around 5 ounces or so of pizza sauce and, say, 12-14 ounces of cheese, would get me to about 36.5-38.5 ounces as the total unbaked pizza weight. I will have to calculate the difference between the unbaked weight and the baked weight to determine what the losses are in my oven with my particular bake protocol. That delta may guide us to other possible changes.

Peter

[Essen1]

I came up with this formula for two 14" pies, using the expanded calculator with the yeast at 0.3%.

KABF/VWG Blend(100%): Water (57%): IDY (0.3%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (163.8%): Single Ball:

408.33 g  |  14.4 oz | 0.9 lbs 232.75 g  |  8.21 oz | 0.51 lbs 1.22 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp 12.25 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.7 tsp | 0.9 tbsp 6.12 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp 668.85 g | 23.59 oz | 1.47 lbs | TF = 0.07663 334.42 g | 11.8 oz | 0.74 lbs

[Pete-zza]

I plan on using a 24hr fermentation, cold-rise. Perhaps I should up the yeast amount to 0.3% then, instead of 0.2%?

Mike,

Yes, I would use at least 0.30% or a bit more if it is cool out where you are. Your one-day test should be a good one since it might give us an idea as to the quality of the results using only one day of cold fermentation. Since Mack's has been around for so long we may be guessing wrong on this. They may have adopted the philosophy that "if its isn't broke, don't fix it" and may have stuck with their basic methods for many years. Mack's also has a lot of locals and regulars to keep happy, even with what appears to be a bustling tourist business.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Right now here in Northern California it's chilly and raining. Crappy weather, in other words. 

So I'll adjust the yeast to perhaps 0.5% and use the 24hr cold-rise. I have to use my Cuisinart Stand Mixer since I don't have a food processor.

Here's the adjusted new formula:

KABF/VWG Blend (100%): Water (57%): IDY (0.5%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (164%): Single Ball:

411.91 g  |  14.53 oz | 0.91 lbs 234.79 g  |  8.28 oz | 0.52 lbs 2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp 8.24 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.48 tsp | 0.49 tbsp 12.36 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.72 tsp | 0.91 tbsp 6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.55 tsp | 0.52 tbsp 675.54 g | 23.83 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.0773963 337.77 g | 11.91 oz | 0.74 lbs

[norma427]

Peter,

I think I am going to try to hand mix and see what happens.  I don’t know if it will be this week, but maybe next Monday.  I still have the slices of Mack’s parbaked to play around with.  I think I am going to take one slice that is in the refrigerator now and the one frozen slice for Steve to try to market tomorrow and bake in my oven.  I also might take the one frozen dough ball to try.  I really didn’t expect the hand mixing to be like a day at the beach.   

On the amount of sauce that was applied yesterday, when the piemen were making the parbaked pizza, there seemed to be more than 5 oz. of pizza sauce applied in my opinion. I apply 8 oz. or a little more to my pizzas at market and it looked like more than that. In my other post I said they weren’t using the hose and it did seem like more sauce was applied when watching them apply the sauce with a stainless steel kind of tea pot. Even in the pictures of the parbaked pie I brought home, it still doesn’t look like a lot of sauce, but is more than I thought before.  We sat and ate our slices while watching.  If I had to guess how much sauce was applied it looked to be about at least 10 oz. or more.

Thanks for setting forth a formula,

Norma

Mike,

I am anxious to hear how your Mack’s pie develops. 

Good luck 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for the additional information on the pizza sauce. I will have to play around with the balance between dough weight, cheese weight and sauce weight. I hope to get a better fix on things after I make the next pizza. What I have observed is that when cheese is free thrown and sauce comes out of a hose, the lack of accurate portioning can produce results that vary all over the place. The Mack's pizzas seem to have many different looks. However, one aspect that seems to remain fairly constant is the blood red color of their sauce. I don't have any tomato product on hand that produces that deep red color. BTW, I read in a couple of places that Mack's adds olive juice to their sauce. Maybe you should have your Mack's sauce undergo spectral analysis to see if that is true  .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

BTW, I read in a couple of places that Mack's adds olive juice to their sauce. Maybe you should have your Mack's sauce undergo spectral analysis to see if that is true  .

Peter

Peter,

Maybe if they are adding olive oil, that is why the taste of their sauce is different than what Steve and I used.  Could be something to try.    I was going to ask for a extra container of pizza sauce, but my daughter said, "Don't you dare!"     She was sitting right beside me, so I thought I had already pushed the envelope.    Maybe if someone else visits Mack's they could ask for extra sauce to see if there might be olive oil added.

I have to look over my pictures and see if I can see any containers of olive oil.  It was dark, so I need to magnify those pictures.  I almost lost my camera in the process.  It dropped into the bin.  Luckily I could retrieve it, by digging.  That would have been a real mess, if I had lost the camera.   

I have no idea what spectral analysis is. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What I read was olive juice, not olive oil. Presumably the olives would come in a container in a liquid of some sort, and that liquid would be added to the pizza sauce if the rumors are true. I was joking about the analysis, which would tell us what is in the sauce, including olive juice.

I agree that having a sample of the Mack's sauce would come in handy, not only to try to identify the herbs and any other ingredients but also to try to replicate the consistency.

Peter

[Essen1]

Worth a read. Interesting comparisons:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2006/08/in_wildwood_new_jersey_its_macks_vs_sams.html

It mentions the cheeses and sauce to cheese ratios.

[norma427]

Worth a read. Interesting comparisons:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2006/08/in_wildwood_new_jersey_its_macks_vs_sams.html

It mentions the cheeses and sauce to cheese ratios.

Mike,

Great find!    I also watched at Sam's, but didn't try a slice.  I should have.  Sam's pizza to me looked like any ordinary pizza NY slice pizza I had many times in New York.  If I would have tried a slice then I would have known.  LOL  I don't know what you will think of the Mack's pizza you will be trying, but to me it is something different.  That is why I am trying to recreate it. 

Hopefully you will also like this style of pizza. 

Thanks for the link,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I recently found a photo of a Mack's pizza slice, at http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/314314.JPG, where the photo shows the presence of a lot of herbs, most likely including oregano. From what I can tell, your photos do not show that amount of herbs in the sauce. Is it possible that there are oregano shakers on the tables at Mack's?

Peter

[sear]

Norma,

I recently found a photo of a Mack's pizza slice, at http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/314314.JPG, where the photo shows the presence of a lot of herbs, most likely including oregano. From what I can tell, your photos do not show that amount of herbs in the sauce. Is it possible that there are oregano shakers on the tables at Mack's?

Peter

in that photo on empty table are red peper, garlic, and some herb shaker (in addition to salt and pepper) 

[Pete-zza]

James,

Good eye. I had noticed the other table but could only identify the salt and pepper shakers. But when I magnified the photo by 400%, I could see three other shakers. One of them looks like it might contain oregano and/or other herbs. Norma may have noticed the shakers and may be able to tell us what is in them.

Peter

[jasonm2674]

Wow Norma,

awesome pics.  I am a little stunned by the thickness of that crust.  It has been forever since I was there so I could very well be remembering something else.  You have a picture of a macs corner stand.  Do they have three on the boardwalk ?  I'm thinking ocean city.  They have a store that is open year round and another within a couple of blocks that is only open in the summers.  The one part of the boardwalk that had the dough making operation underneath it was nearer to the store that closes in winter.

I vividly remember walking up the end of the street, on the left below the boardwalk was the dough area and then up to the boardwalk and turning left to get to the store a short ways down.

That's awesome the information you guys have put together I think I may have to take a weekend and drive out there just to have some

Keep up the good work!!!


EDIT -   The oven that is in those pictures is I believe an old LA version of rotoflex.  That is an old oven, probably late 1960's or mid 70's.  It has been retrofitted.  The large square metal plate behind the digital readout is about the size of the original thermostat control those ovens had.  I know that the store's we had visited had new ovens installed that did not have the brickwork on them.

WOW it's been so long !  Thanks for the memory recall along with all of this as well

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for finding the picture of the slice with more added oregano or herbs.   When we ate the slices of Mack’s pizza over the weekend there wasn’t that much herbs on the slices or even the parbaked pie we bought home. 

I didn’t notice any shakers at the counter where we ate the slices of pizza.  Maybe I was just trying to watch what they were doing and I might have missed them.  I was trying to watch the piemen, talk to them, and also trying to inspect the pizza I was eating, so my brain might not have been able to take everything in. 

Steve and I shared two slices of the parbaked Mack’s pizza today.  We baked one slice on the deck in the bottom of my oven and one slice on a screen in the top of the oven.  The first 3 pictures are of the slice baked on the deck in the bottom of my oven.  This sure didn’t taste as good as when the pies are just made or even when my daughter and I reheated in the microwave.  The cheese still tasted good, but the crust didn’t have any more rise.  Steve thought the cheese tasted like American cheese added.  After I thought about it, I too, thought the cheese tasted something like a good American cheese.  Steve also commented that the slices tasted like a grilled cheese sandwich.  The second slice that was baked on the screen turned out better, but still wasn’t like a Mack’s pizza.  I didn’t take any pictures of the second slice.  The last picture is the baked skin.  We tried to analyze if other spices were added and the only thing we came up with was there was probably pepper added.  There were some small pieces that tasted like pepper.  The other herb, was oregano in our opinion.

We also tried to open one of the dough balls.  It was hard to open and did want to rip.  We just baked the skin on the deck with no toppings.  I think the dough was overfermented.  We both did smell it after it baked and to us really smelled like fresh bread.  We didn’t eat any though. 

Norma

jasonm2674,

Thanks for saying you like the pictures.    There are only two Mack’s in Wildwood now.  The place I think that is making the dough is the one at Wildwood Crest.  I didn’t see any evidence that they were making the dough at the Mack’s in the center of the boardwalk.  The oven at the Mack’s in Wildwood Crest does have a thermostat that you can see the dial.  I didn’t eat any pizza at that Mack’s.  I just looked inside and around that building. 

You’re welcome for the memory recall.  I also had the memory revisited.

Norma

[norma427]

Since this thread is about Mack’s pizza, the shore and boardwalk, I thought I would include a picture under the boardwalk.  This song is titled “Under the Boardwalk”, by the Drifters.  The song “Under the Boardwalk” was popular in the 60's.  Under the boardwalk in Wildwood many years ago, the spaces for the boards were farther apart.  My brother and I went under the boardwalk many times searching for money.  We did find money many times.

Since Wildwood was know as a Doo Wop town for many years, I thought I would include this in this thread.



And of course who could forget the song I had posted before “Wildwood Days”, by Bobby Rydell.  I sure just had one of those “Wildwood Nights”, this past weekend. This video shows different views of Wildwood and included in this video is a  picture of Mack’s pizza business almost at the end of the video.  Since spring will soon be gone and summer is comin on, in my opinion this song is fitting for this thread.



Norma

[Essen1]

Okay, so here's my contribution to the Mack pie cloning project.

I have to say that Peter's formula was great. However, since I don't have anything to compare it to - never had a Mack's pie in my life - I will just describe the characteristics of the crust and see what the feedback is from those who had a Mack pie before and hopefully it came close...

I think the crust had all the features of a good NY street slice crust. It was crunchy yet chewy, was easily folded and had a nice droop. The two pies I made were baked at around 565°F for roughly 7 mins. As for the cheese, I used 8oz of the "O" organics brand sharp white cheddar cheese and 4oz mozzarella cheese of the Lucerne brand (both Safeway brands). They cheeses blended in very nicely without producing too much grease. It was a surprisingly tasteful combo.

For the sauce, I used my own recipe because I don't really know what type of sauce or ingredients Mack uses. Overall, I think the formula Peter posted is dead on for a great NY-style pizza. But since I like a bit more crunch in mine I might reduce the amount of oil that used. I also noted the difference between the olive oil that I normally use in my doughs and the vegetable oil.

For the oil I used the Smart Balance brand, which has a blend of canola, soy and olive oils, plus some healthy Omega 3's...something for the conscience. 

Anyway, I might tinker around with Peter's formula just a little bit and see what I can come up with. I will either post the findings here or in my NY-style project thread.


Norma,

In pic # 5712 & 5714 you can see how close Peter came with his formula when you compare the crust to the pics you posted of the slice you bought at Mack's. It is very close.

The first pie was a plain cheese and the second a simple mushroom.

[Essen1]

Second set of pics...

[Essen1]

And the rest...