Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[CDNpielover]

Norma,

Your pies look outstanding, as usual.  I think i'm going to try my hand at making a Greek pie later this week.  Thanks for all of your pictures, I'm often excited by your posts but don't comment on them much since I'm not very experienced and don't have much to contribute.  haha!  keep up the good work!   

[norma427]

Norma,

Your pies look outstanding, as usual.  I think i'm going to try my hand at making a Greek pie later this week.  Thanks for all of your pictures, I'm often excited by your posts but don't comment on them much since I'm not very experienced and don't have much to contribute.  haha!  keep up the good work!  

CDNpielover,

Thanks for you kind words.    I think you will find that making Greek pies are easy.  They don't have to launch from a peel, or stretched-out like a regular NY style dough.  Even made from the same doughs, the final pizza tastes very different.  

You don't have to be experienced to post on other members threads.  Since I first joined this forum, I have posted on many members threads and asked questions, or just told them I thought they did a great job.  I sure didn't have much to contribute either for a long while when I first became a member.  You will learn by your experiments.  I still have failures and don't know why.  

Norma

[norma427]

What a relief that my market scale is working again!  It only took the used AC adapter to fix the problem of my market scale not working.  My dough felt better this past Tuesday.  A few pictures from Tuesday.

Norma

[norma427]

I didn’t think to take more pictures yesterday, but I tried another experiment with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if a bromated flour made any difference in my pizzas using the same formulation.  I used ADM Milling Gigantic High Gluten flour in two batches of preferment Lehmann dough.  I wished I would have taken more pictures of the baked pizzas, dough balls, and skins yesterday, but I only have these few pictures.  The dough looked the same after the final mix.  The dough balls also fermented the same.  When opening the dough balls though, it seemed the skin wanted to stretch back some.  I sure don’t know what caused that.  The finished pizzas seemed to bubble more in the rim and also seemed to brown a little better in the bake.  I guess, but don’t know, that bromated flour contributed to the differences.  The bottom crusts even seemed to brown better and more evenly.  The Greek pizzas even seemed to have more oven spring in the rims. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

These pictures really aren't that great in representing what the pizzas looked like yesterday.

Norma

[fazzari]

Beauties Norma!!
Isn't that the best bottom yet...so golden....any differences in texture and taste??

John

[norma427]

Beauties Norma!!
Isn't that the best bottom yet...so golden....any differences in texture and taste??

John

Thanks John!

The bottom of all my crusts were more golden using the bromated flour, even baked at the same temperature.  I thought the texture was better using the bromated flour, but I am not sure of the taste of the pizzas.  I only sampled slices of two pies and I can’t be sure if the taste was any better.  I guess that leads to more experiments, as always.  Some of the experiments I have been doing lately on other styles of pizzas using different flours are giving me different results, even when trying the same formulations.  It is always interesting to see what a different flour will do in the same formula.

Norma

[chickenparm]

Norma,

I do not have the experience you have with different flours,but I wanted to say again that when I use a HG flour like Bouncer,I get a lot more rim rise,bubbles,and etc over a bread flour of the same exact recipe.
I do not know why,it just happens every time I use the HG flour.

That said,Your pies you posted looks fantastic and I wish I could sample all of them!
 

Thanks for posting your experiments!

[norma427]

Norma,

I do not have the experience you have with different flours,but I wanted to say again that when I use a HG flour like Bouncer,I get a lot more rim rise,bubbles,and etc over a bread flour of the same exact recipe.
I do not know why,it just happens every time I use the HG flour.

That said,Your pies you posted looks fantastic and I wish I could sample all of them!
 

Thanks for posting your experiments!

Bill,

Thanks for your kind words!  I never tried HG Bouncer flour and also many other kinds of flours, but I do like experimenting with flours.  Your comments are interesting about the Bouncer HG flour in that it gives you more rim rise and bubbles in your dough.  I think Bouncer is a bleached and bromated flour if I am correct.  Do you know the specs for the Bouncer flour?  Did you ever try a side by side comparison with another high gluten flour with the Bouncer flour, maybe another HG flour that isn’t bromated? 

I am always undecided whether I would like to experiment with bromated flours more.  I do use bromated flours for some experiments, but can’t decide whether I would like to use bromated flour for my market dough all the time.  I did begin with bromated flour when I starting making pizza, but wanted to change to unbromated flour. 

Thanks for telling me of your experiences with Bouncer Flour.  I love your experiments too! 

Norma

[fazzari]

I didn’t think to take more pictures yesterday, but I tried another experiment with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if a bromated flour made any difference in my pizzas using the same formulation.  I used ADM Milling Gigantic High Gluten flour in two batches of preferment Lehmann dough.  I wished I would have taken more pictures of the baked pizzas, dough balls, and skins yesterday, but I only have these few pictures.  The dough looked the same after the final mix.  The dough balls also fermented the same.  When opening the dough balls though, it seemed the skin wanted to stretch back some.  I sure don’t know what caused that.  The finished pizzas seemed to bubble more in the rim and also seemed to brown a little better in the bake.  I guess, but don’t know, that bromated flour contributed to the differences.  The bottom crusts even seemed to brown better and more evenly.  The Greek pizzas even seemed to have more oven spring in the rims. 

Norma

Norma
I was reading the new Pizza Today issue today, and interestingly enough Tom Lehmann talks a little about bromated flours in his article "Flour Power".  Here is what he says : "Bromate is added to provide strength to the performance characteristics of the flour.  This effect is especially evident during baking where bromated flours may exhibit improved rise, or oven spring characteristics.  This can be an important performance feature in bread production, but in pizza production it has little or no benefit, and in fact, it can even induce a negative performance as it may contribute to increased dough memory or snap-back characteristics, thus potentially making the dough more difficult to open and maintain size."

From at least Lehmann's descriptions, it sounds like your observations are exactly what they should have been....Great job!

John

[norma427]

Norma
I was reading the new Pizza Today issue today, and interestingly enough Tom Lehmann talks a little about bromated flours in his article "Flour Power".  Here is what he says : "Bromate is added to provide strength to the performance characteristics of the flour.  This effect is especially evident during baking where bromated flours may exhibit improved rise, or oven spring characteristics.  This can be an important performance feature in bread production, but in pizza production it has little or no benefit, and in fact, it can even induce a negative performance as it may contribute to increased dough memory or snap-back characteristics, thus potentially making the dough more difficult to open and maintain size."

From at least Lehmann's descriptions, it sounds like your observations are exactly what they should have been....Great job!

John

John,

Thanks for telling me what Tom Lehmann had to say about bromated flours in his article “Flour Power” in the new Pizza Today issue.  The dough balls on Tuesday sure didn’t want to open as easily as normal.  I don’t really know if I used the same bromated flour in another formula if I would have had the same results or not.  I have tried different bromated flours in other formulas and the dough balls did open well.  I am not wild about using bromated flours, but the price of the flour I had used to make the two batches on Tuesday is about 10.00 cheaper for a 50 lb. bag compared to KASL.  I sure wish my distributor for flour had a cheaper alternative flour than KASL for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I had bought a 50 lb. bag of ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour at the restaurant store, not from my flour distributor.  I try to use higher end sauce, mozzarella cheeses, and flour in my pizzas for market and the prices for sauce, cheese, and flours has risen a lot in the last years since I started making pizza at market.  I am sure you also noticed the price increases.  My market stand is only a very little pizza operation compared to yours. 

Norma

[scott123]

14% flour generally appreciates minimal kneads, and bromated 14% flour appreciates even less kneading that.  The kneading bromated 14% requires is so minimal, that it's very difficult to make sure the dough is well mixed without overkneading it. This is why I always try to steer NY pizzamakers towards bromated 12.5% mid high gluten flours like Commander.

As far as bromate producing 'negative performance' in pizza- that's a total crock.  If that were true, every single NY pizzeria wouldn't be using it. The only time when it produces 'negative performance' is when pizzamakers try to knead it for as long as unbromated flour doughs- that's when you have problems.  If you knead it the appropriately lesser amount of time, it will give you more extensibility and more oven spring than it's unbromated counterpart.

Norma, I'm sure you're aware of my feelings on the innate inferiority of KASL, so rather than expand on those sentiments yet again, here's the feelings of someone else:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10630.msg94506.html#msg94506

Honestly, I think you will like it better than KASL

KASL is a great flour, but it can get too chewy if your pizza/bread sits around for a while, or if it is cooked to the point of New Haven/ Totono's style charring. 

I think where KASL shines is if you are trying to make an authentic NY style bagel.

As far as King Arthur flours and pizza go I prefer their Bread flour (called KA Special in 50lb bags) to KASL in most applications. 

[norma427]

14% flour generally appreciates minimal kneads, and bromated 14% flour appreciates even less kneading that.  The kneading bromated 14% requires is so minimal, that it's very difficult to make sure the dough is well mixed without overkneading it. This is why I always try to steer NY pizzamakers towards bromated 12.5% mid high gluten flours like Commander.

As far as bromate producing 'negative performance' in pizza- that's a total crock.  If that were true, every single NY pizzeria wouldn't be using it. The only time when it produces 'negative performance' is when pizzamakers try to knead it for as long as unbromated flour doughs- that's when you have problems.  If you knead it the appropriately lesser amount of time, it will give you more extensibility and more oven spring than it's unbromated counterpart.

Norma, I'm sure you're aware of my feelings on the innate inferiority of KASL, so rather than expand on those sentiments yet again, here's the feelings of someone else:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10630.msg94506.html#msg94506

Scott,

Thanks for your information about bromated flours at 14% do appreciate less kneading than unbleached unbromated flours.  I never tried that experiment except when I was first making pizzas and sure didn’t know how long to mix the dough.   I had wanted to pick-up a bag of Commander flour when I was at the Restaurant Store last week, but for some reason they were out of it.  I will have to do an experiment this week with less kneading time in my mixer to see if my results would be different using the ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour.  How long do you recommend for me to mix the dough in the Hobart?  I usually mix my final dough about 6 minutes after the oil is added to the mix with KASL.  That is the amount of time I mixed my last two batches with the Gigantic flour.  The dough did look and feel the same as when I am using KASL (when it was pulled out of the mixer and balled).  

I am aware of your feelings on KASL.   I never tried the KA Special that scott r mentioned in your link.  Did you ever try the KA Special in a dough?  I will call my flour distributor and see if they carry the KA Special.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The King Arthur Special flour is the foodservice name for the retail King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF). They are the same flour. You can see the specs at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html. FYI, the Sir Galahad flour is the same as the King Arthur all-purpose flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The King Arthur Special flour is the foodservice name for the retail King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF). They are the same flour. You can see the specs at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html. FYI, the Sir Galahad flour is the same as the King Arthur all-purpose flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that KA Special is the same as KABF and the link. I didn’t know that before. I just looked at C.O. Nolt & Son and they do carry King Arthur Special Blend.  http://www.conolt.com/categories.asp?ID=1  Maybe I will give the KA Special a try in the preferment Lehmann dough.  Do you have any idea how the KA Special will work in the preferment Lehmann dough?

I didn’t know that Sir Galahad is the same as the King Arthur all-purpose flour.

Norma

[scott123]

Norma, within the general scheme of things, 6 minutes, in a Hobart, assuming you're going with a low setting, is relatively minimal kneading.

When I was kneading bromated All Trumps by hand, if I kneaded it 2 minutes, it was undermixed, but at 3 minutes it was too much and the dough would end up bucky and the crust tough. 2.5 minutes- perfect. You don't get much to play around with. You blink and the window passes.   You won't get that with 12.5% protein flour. With 12.5, it's not like "Oh, my goodness, how can I hit this target?" It's more like "Wow, this target's big"  With bromated 14% you have to catch it on the way up to peak gluten development, whereas, with 12.5%, you can hit that peak development plateau and spend a considerable amount of time there before the gluten starts breaking down.

Assuming this is a production setting and an overnight ferment, I'd try 5 minutes first and then 4. Don't be afraid if the dough isn't smooth- it'll be smooth by the time you form it.

[norma427]

Norma, within the general scheme of things, 6 minutes, in a Hobart, assuming you're going with a low setting, is relatively minimal kneading.

When I was kneading bromated All Trumps by hand, if I kneaded it 2 minutes, it was undermixed, but at 3 minutes it was too much and the dough would end up bucky and the crust tough. 2.5 minutes- perfect. You don't get much to play around with. You blink and the window passes.   You won't get that with 12.5% protein flour. With 12.5, it's not like "Oh, my goodness, how can I hit this target?" It's more like "Wow, this target's big"  With bromated 14% you have to catch it on the way up to peak gluten development, whereas, with 12.5%, you can hit that peak development plateau and spend a considerable amount of time there before the gluten starts breaking down.

Assuming this is a production setting and an overnight ferment, I'd try 5 minutes first and then 4. Don't be afraid if the dough isn't smooth- it'll be smooth by the time you form it.

Scott,

I always mix on speed one in the Hobart.  I will try making a batch of the preferment Lehmann dough with bromated flour this coming week and mix for 5 minutes to see what happens. I do cold ferment the dough overnight.  I didn’t know bromated flour was that touchy in the mixing process. 

Thanks for your help! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Thanks for telling me that KA Special is the same as KABF and the link. I didn’t know that before.

Norma,

Yes, you did . See Replies 111 and 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138156/topicseen.html#msg138156.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Maybe I will give the KA Special a try in the preferment Lehmann dough.  Do you have any idea how the KA Special will work in the preferment Lehmann dough?

Norma,

I thinks the King Arthur Special should work. It is likely to yield a slightly less chewy, more tender crust with a bit less crust coloration and taste (because of the lower protein content). You might have to adjust the hydration a bit (lower it) since the KA Special has a lower rated absorption than the KASL.

Peter