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Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 312703 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #660 on: October 13, 2010, 01:47:32 PM »
Norma,

I think we were fortunate that once we got past early attempts to use a stiff, biga-like preferment, even with Tom Lehmann's assistance, progress using the poolish approach came quite quickly and with good results. But credit also goes to old criter, who posted on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification. Had I not seen the old criter dough recipe and had I not become intrigued about its possible application to your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, who knows how long we would have been dribbling around in the backcourt trying to come up with something that would have worked for your application? I think that paying attention to the teachings of Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel also helped and kept us from veering off course to our detriment. We are all interconnected in what we know and do, so, to be fair, credit has to be interconnected too. I'm just happy that you are contributing to the gross domestic product (GDP) with your efforts at market.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #661 on: October 13, 2010, 07:32:35 PM »
Norma,

I think we were fortunate that once we got past early attempts to use a stiff, biga-like preferment, even with Tom Lehmann's assistance, progress using the poolish approach came quite quickly and with good results. But credit also goes to old criter, who posted on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification. Had I not seen the old criter dough recipe and had I not become intrigued about its possible application to your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, who knows how long we would have been dribbling around in the backcourt trying to come up with something that would have worked for your application? I think that paying attention to the teachings of Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel also helped and kept us from veering off course to our detriment. We are all interconnected in what we know and do, so, to be fair, credit has to be interconnected too. I'm just happy that you are contributing to the gross domestic product (GDP) with your efforts at market.

Peter

I also believe we were fortunate to get past the stiff, biga like preferment. This thread is very long and I could see someone getting bored at reading all that is posted on this thread and all the links. The first doughs sure didnít work well.  I also would like to thank old criter for posting on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification.  I knew you had gotten the idea from that post on how to try and proceed with this dough.  I have seen in past experiments how long it can take in finally succeeding for a workable dough.  I believe the teachings of Didier Rosada and Professor Raymond Calvel also helped us in this thread.  I have been reading different articles from both of these men and can understand how much their teachings have to do with the pizza world, although I have a lot more to learn.

I am glad to be able to contribute to the Gross Domestic Product although I am a really small business and really donít make that much money, but I really do like making pizza, so I really have the best of both worlds.  I enjoy my job making pizza and experimenting. Although my pizza business is a very small business it does contribute some to the U.S. economy by me also buying products to make the pizzas. 

My hat is off to everyone that helped with this dough.   :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #662 on: October 13, 2010, 07:46:37 PM »
Norma,

Hats off to you. Outstanding work!  ;)

And the pies look phenomenal. Congrats.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #663 on: October 13, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »
Norma,

Hats off to you. Outstanding work!  ;)

And the pies look phenomenal. Congrats.

Mike,

Thanks for the hats off to me and the congrats.  :) I wouldn't have been able to understand how to make this dough or achieve the pizzas I have been able to make without the help of all the people I mentioned in my other posts.  This forum is amazing in all the information that is here for people to learn and also from all the members that help everyone.  I didn't forgot about trying your formula in my oven.  I just didn't have time to try it out as of right now.  Maybe soon I will be able to try your formula out in the deck oven. I do have your formula printed out.  Your pizzas and breads look amazing also.  ;D

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #664 on: October 13, 2010, 08:26:20 PM »
Norma,

Pretty cool that you have the formula printed out.

I am actually curious to see how my dough formula holds up in a commercial oven but no rush. Whenever you feel you have the time.

Thanks for the compliments... ;D

Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #665 on: October 14, 2010, 10:26:04 PM »
This pizza was made for this months challenge of ďcandyĒ.  I used a small dough ball of leftover dough that was frozen since Tuesday night.  The frozen dough ball was time defrosted in 2 Ĺ minutes.  It was then left on the table for about 15 minutes before I opened the skin.  I wanted to make a different kind of pizza for this challenge because it is fall and I also wanted to use candy.  While I was at market Tuesday I picked up some papaya, toffee coated pecans, dried cherries and some candy.  I had thought about buying some dried cranberries too, but decided that would be too much for this small pizza.  I was wondering about what kind of cheese to use for this pie, and decided to use mild white cheddar cheese that was frozen.  This pie was one of the fastest pies I have made from start to finish.  I let the oven heat up for about an hour and placed the pie on the baking stone on the top rack position of my oven.  I also decided to sprinkle cinnamon on this pie after it was baked, because I recently read in our local newspaper that cinnamon is the ďspice of lifeĒ and really good for many things.  I guess they are just studying cinnamon more these days, but donít have any definite answers at this time about the health benefits.  I really like cinnamon though, so I thought I would add it to this pie. 

The pizza bake went well, even for the low temperature of my home oven.  The pie reminded me of fall and could be used for fall or Halloween.  Even the taste of the combined toppings worked out well in my opinion.  The candy corn and pumpkins were placed on the pie after the bake.

I did turn on the broiler for about 1 minute after the rim rose, then turned the oven back to bake.  This pie only took 4 Ĺ minutes to bake.  The one part of the rim developed a tall dark spot, so I just cut that dark spot off with a scissors.  It can be seen in the one picture I am posting how I cut off the dark spot.  This crumb was very good, moist and the bottom crust was crunchy.  The combination of the toffee coated nuts with the dried fruit really added to this pizza.  I would have thought this pizza would have been too sweet, but the cheese, cinnamon and other toppings didnít make this pie sweet.  There was just a blend of good flavors in my opinion.  This pie did get decent oven spring.

Pictures below 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #666 on: October 18, 2010, 05:36:41 PM »
Both containers of poolish were okay today.  I have started taking the pH numbers for the poolish and Friday and Monday.  I will also take the pH of some of the doughs tomorrow before they are made into a pizza. 

It still makes me wonder if it wasnít the flour that made the poolish watery before.  Since I have started using the new bags of flour, there hasnít been any problems with the poolish being watery.

Few pictures of one poolish today.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #667 on: October 19, 2010, 10:07:59 PM »
These are three pies baked today.  I did take the pH numbers of two of the pies before baking.  I will post a worksheet of the poolish pH numbers and also the pH of the dough before the bake tomorrow.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #668 on: October 20, 2010, 08:35:27 AM »
This is the worksheet for the poolish and two doughs, before the final bake, with pictures posted in my last post.  Two different batches were made for these two dough balls that had the pH numbers taken. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #669 on: October 27, 2010, 09:40:34 AM »
This was supposed to be a pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough.  Steve and I forgot about this pizza, when it was in the oven.  After I thought I smelling something burning, I remembered that there was a pizza in the oven.

We both thought that the colors of this pizza looked like Halloween.  The pizza was hard as a rock and we decided to cut a pumpkin face on this pizza.  I used scissors to quickly cut out eyes, a nose and a smiling mouth.  Different customers and people that were walking by my market stand had to laugh about this pizza.  They also thought it looked like a pumpkin face.  At least we all got a laugh about this preferment Lehmann dough pizza pumpkin face.

I never saw a pizza this burnt before.   :-[  At least a Halloween mask is another use for this preferment Lehmann dough.   :-D

Pictures below

Norma

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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #670 on: October 27, 2010, 09:53:49 AM »
Amazing, I love the...ever so subtle char....  >:D

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #671 on: October 27, 2010, 10:15:27 AM »
Amazing, I love the...ever so subtle char....  >:D

Mick.Chicago.

I am glad you like the ever so subtle char.. >:D  The interesting thing to me about this overly done pizza was the bubbles on the crust stand out so more more.   ;D

Thanks,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #672 on: November 03, 2010, 08:11:28 AM »
I usually make cheesy breadsticks by opening a regular dough ball into a rectangular shape and then place it on parchment paper on a baking pan, then bake the pie half way in the oven.  Finally slide the breadsticks off the parchment paper and bake on the deck.  I decided to try these breadsticks in a different way yesterday.  I used a bigger dough ball, opened the dough, placed the toppings on and slide the pie (breadsticks) into the oven.  What I found out from this experiment was there was a big rise in the crumb of these breadsticks.  This dough was left out for over 1 Ĺ hrs. to warm-up.  I then cut this pie (breadsticks) into strips.

Pictures include a tape measure to show how high this rim was. Almost 2" in some places.

I also wanted to note, no more problems with the poolish and it being watery on the bottom.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 08:14:20 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #673 on: December 01, 2010, 09:24:26 AM »
These are some pictures I took of a Sicilian pizza made yesterday, with the same Preferment Lehmann I use for my NY style pizzas. This dough was frozen from last week. I find it interesting how this same dough behaves differently when put into a deep-dish pan and then baked on a screen.

This is also a video I took at Rootís Market in the morning yesterday of what part of one aisle looks like, if anyone is interested in looking at it.  This video also shows my former Caramel Popcorn, Cotton Candy and Clear Toy Candy stand. 

In this one aisle, it shows all the raw milk, raw milk cheeses, organic foods, cheese spreads, vegetables, meats, nuts, fruits, eggs, big candy stand, freshly made pickle stand, big sub stand, potato chip and pretzel stand, cheeses, bakeries, bagels, Chef Tims products, fresh pasta stand and other stands. Some of these stands were closed yesterday, due to their owners hunting. It can be seen on this video how many Mennonite and Amish people operate stands at Rootís Market.  This is just one small part of Rootís inside. In time I will take videos of the rest of Rootís Market, and post them here on this thread.  Sorry I didnít take this video slower, but it takes too long to upload on You Tube.  Many out of town customers come to Rootís market.  A lot of them that visit for the first time remark on how a market this big can only be open one day a week.  That is the way it has been since 1925.  Being open only one day a week does have its advantages, because then people know that is the only day to come and purchase all the fresh products.  Vegetable, fruits, nuts and other product prices are cheaper at Rootís Market, than our local supermarkets.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #674 on: December 08, 2010, 12:40:19 PM »
These are just two pictures of pizza I made yesterday at market, one Sicilian in a deep-dish pan and one regular cheese pizza, both from the Preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #675 on: December 08, 2010, 01:19:33 PM »
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #676 on: December 08, 2010, 01:55:05 PM »
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter

Peter,

Your eyes don't deceive you.  These two pizzas even were from frozen doughs.  These two pizzas were baked at about 566 degrees F.  The Sicilian pizza was baked in a deep-dish pan on a screen in my top oven and the regular NY style was baked on the stone, in the bottom oven.  I still can't figure out why even this dough seems to brown better fresh or frozen.  Some day I might need to do a test with Kyrol flour with a natural leavening system, to see if it is my oven, flour, or lack of residual sugar that is giving me problems in browning. When I was trying the clone Mack's dough, there wasn't any problems with browning of the crust, in my deck oven.  When I first starting making pizzas with the regular Lehmann dough, with Pillsbury Balancer, All Trumps, and Kyrol, I didn't have any browning issues.  I even had my oven at different temperatures when using bromated flours.

I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #677 on: December 08, 2010, 03:30:41 PM »
I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma,

Those are some interesting comparisons.

Using a naturally leavened dough with another high-gluten flour such as the Kyrol might make sense but mainly to see if it is your KASL that is impeding the crust coloration in a natural leaven application. To the best of my knowledge, the bromated part shouldn't have any effect on the crust color. Of course, you have no choice on that. It goes with the Kyrol if that is the flour you decide to use.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #678 on: December 08, 2010, 06:10:29 PM »
Peter,

A few weeks ago when I went to order flour from my supplier C.O. Nolt and Sons, Inc. and they were out of KASL.  That isnít normal, but I guess they sold more than they thought they would. I had asked them what comparable flour they had that wasnít bromated, but they didnít have any they could substitute for me, until they would get some more KASL the next week.  The All Trumps 50 lb. bag was 19.99 and the Kyrol flour was even higher.   I wasnít sure if I had enough flour, until the following week, so I stopped in at the Restaurant Store to see what they carried.  They had 104-GIGANTIC in 50 lb. bags. http://www.therestaurantstore.com/High-Gluten-Flour-50-lb-/104GIGANTIC.html  I asked who makes the Gigantic flour and the employee told me Pillsbury.  I donít know if that is true or not, but I purchased one bag for 12.99, the sale price.  I didnít need the flour and it is now sitting in my van.  I was going to take it back, but might do some experiments with it.  The employee told me many pizza shops in my area purchase the Gigantic flour and it is bromated.

I might make one Preferment Lehmann dough ball and also a couple of dough balls that I have been trying with the natural leavening systems.  I really donít have any problems with trying out bromated flour to see what would happen.  I can then either bag up the leftover flour and try to sell it or give some away.  Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #679 on: December 08, 2010, 09:26:51 PM »
Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma,

I have heard of the Gigantic flour but I believe it is an ADM product, as noted at http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Flour/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx.

I would be surprised if the KASL flour you have been using was the cause of the reduced top crust browning. The problem has been most pronounced when using a natural leavening system. When you have used the commercially-leavened Lehmann poolish preferment with your KASL flour, you have not had the problem, at least not to the same degree. You could try another high-gluten flour to see if it alleviates the problem, but I have my doubts about that happening. From the experiments you have conducted and reported on to date at the other threads, the coloration problem seems to be isolated to the doughs using natural leavening systems. If that is correct, and the problem is not really oven related, you are left with the usual measures such as using sugar or honey or some other additive. Beyond that, it seems to me that the fermentation method and protocol may need to be altered.

Peter

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