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Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 345234 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2010, 06:08:45 PM »
Norma,

The part that is missing from your post is the Final Mix and its composition. However, looking at the photos, the dough can't possibly be a 56% hydration dough. A 50% hydration preferment using 0.1% IDY and cold fermented overnight, and even with a 3-hour warm-up time, cannot transform the final dough into one with a hydration that I estimate to be over 70%. So, something went awry.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2010, 06:25:37 PM »
Peter,
That's what I was thinking, too.  I will take my Taylor scale back and purchase another brand or different model.  I believe either this model wasn't working right or I didn't measure the biga right, although I was trying to measure precisely.

How is a biga supposed to look?

Do you know what Tom Lehmann was referring to when he made this post?  He said the dough will be a little softer, so to correct for this, we reduce the absorption a little to help maintain the desired dough consistency.

PN;
That's correct. Because of the fermented sponge portion, the dough will be a little softer, so to correct for this, we reduce the absorption a little to help maintain the desired dough consistency.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


I will still try to proceed  using the dough tomorrow. 

Could you tell me what I need to change to try this next week?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2010, 07:21:02 PM »
Norma,

For the benefit of those who are following this thread, the quote you recited comes from the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419.

I interpret the quoted portion to mean that a sponge (actually the consistency is more a biga consistency) will soften the final dough and, to combat this, the total formula hydration is lowered. That is why Tom specified a total dough hydration of 56% instead of the 58% hydration that you have been using. A classic biga with around 50% hydration will be a stiff piece of dough.

I took the dough formulation you posted in Reply 38 of this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86384.html#msg86384, with the 56% hydration that Tom recommended, and transformed it into the following three-part format set forth below. In this transformation, I assumed that the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour rather than the total formula flour, and that the full complement of the total formula yeast, 0.25%, is used in the Final Mix.

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (159%):
Single Ball:
1601.05 g  |  56.47 oz | 3.53 lbs
896.59 g  |  31.63 oz | 1.98 lbs
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
28.02 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
16.01 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.10%):
Total (150.1%):
533.68 g  |  18.82 oz | 1.18 lbs
266.84 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
801.06 g | 28.26 oz | 1.77 lbs
Note: Preferment flour represents 1/3 of the total formula flour (1/3 x 1601.05 = 533.68); the IDY is with respect to the preferment flour

Final Mix
Preferment (as noted above): 801.06 grams (28.26 ounces)
Remaining 2/3 of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour: 1067.37 grams (37.65 ounces)
Remaining total formula water: 629.75 grams (22.21 ounces) [Note: 896.59-266.84 = 629.75)
Total formula IDY (0.25%): 4 grams | 0.14 ounces | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Total formula salt (1.75%): 28.02 grams | 0.99 ounces | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
Total formula oil (1%): 16.01 grams | 0.56 ounces | 0.04 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
Total dough weight = 2546.21 grams (89.81 ounces, or 5.61 lbs)

You will note that I treated the two additions of yeast separately. I could have added the preferment yeast to the basic Lehmann dough formulation instead, which would have changed the numbers slightly (actually, very slightly). But, I stuck to the procedures recommended by Tom.

In preparing the dough, you should have made the preferment as instructed by Tom and you should have used it the next day in the Final Mix along with the rest of the ingredients as referenced above in the Final Mix. Did your numbers mirror those given above, or something close to them?

Peter




« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 07:37:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2010, 08:11:33 PM »
Peter,
They were close, but not exactly like yours.

Here is what I was following:

Preferment:

Flour (100%)                525.85g   18.65oz.  1.17lbs
Water (50%)                264.42g     9.33oz.  0.58lbs
IDY (0.1%)                   0.53g        0.02oz.  0 lbs.  0.18tsp   0.06tbsp
Total (150.1%)             793.8g       28 oz.    1.75lbs.  TF=N/A

Total Lehmann Dough Ingredients

Flour (100%)               1601.05g     56.47oz  3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                 896.59g     31.63oz  1.98lbs
IDY (0.25%)                      4g         0.14oz  0.01lbs  1.33tsp 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.75%)                   28.02g     0.99oz  0.06lbs.  5.84 tsp  1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                          16.01g     0.56oz  0.04lbs  3.56tsp  1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                2545.67g    89.79oz  5.61lbs  TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                      509.13     17.96oz  1.12lbs   
 
I must have measured wrong when mixing the biga, since you have explained it should have been a stiff piece of dough instead of the liquid. 
Thank you for posting your results in what should have happened with the biga and Tom Lehmann's explanations in your interpretation. 
Thanks,
Norma 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2010, 08:22:48 PM »
Norma,

Was your final mix like what I set forth? To get a final dough hydration of over 70% because of a faulty preferment, you would have needed a lot of water in the preferment. BTW, I estimated your final dough hydration based on the second photo at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131. The dough shown in that photo had a roughly 65% hydration. Your dough seemed quite a bit wetter than that.

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2010, 08:39:57 PM »
Peter,
I didnít subtract any water from the Total Lehmann Dough Ingredients. No wonder I had a sticky dough.  I wonder how high the hydration was?  My guess would be 65% or above..based on the photo referenced. lol
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.  I will learn all this in time.  Thanks for your help.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2010, 08:46:32 PM »
Norma,

It will still be interesting to see if you get the desired results using the biga/preferment version of the Lehmann dough formulation.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2010, 08:53:09 PM »
Peter,
I am still laughing..I still will try it tomorrow (whatever it is).  Next week, I will try to get the preferment and the subtracted water right.
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2010, 09:39:29 PM »
Well..this is what happened with the (whatever dough).  I had messed up making my first preferment, but tried the (whatever dough), today.  Steve also tried the (whatever dough). 
The dough was very soft.  There wasnít any problems when opening the dough.  We decided the taste of the crust was different, but couldnít decide what the difference was.  If Steve has any suggestions on how he thought the pizza tasted, he can also comment. 
I used four of the dough balls today.  I like the taste of the pizza, but donít really think this is what I am looking for in improving my crust.  The (whatever dough) rose in the container about double until today.
I think using the longer ferment gave me a better flavor in terms of crust flavor. 
I will try again next week to make the preferment, again.  Hopefully this time I will measure the biga right and subtract the water for the portion of the regular Lehmann dough, which I didnít do this week. 
I froze one dough ball of the (whatever dough) to try next week.
Norma
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 11:55:52 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2010, 09:40:29 PM »
The rest of the pictures.
Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2010, 08:29:18 AM »
Does anyone know if taking the pH of either this preferment biga dough or my regular Lehmann dough will give me additional information on how the flour in the dough is depleting natural sugar?  ???
I do have a pH meter, but don't really understand how this can tell me what has happened from the time I mix the dough, until the time I am ready to use the dough to make a pizza.  ::)
Is it really worth experimenting with a pH meter?
Thanks,
Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:07 PM »
The biga was mixed today.  It will be incorporated into the dough tomorrow.  It looks like a biga this time.
 
Hope I got it right this second attempt.

I think this whole pizza making is getting addictive!  ::)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2010, 08:35:40 AM »
For anyone that is following this tread, Tom Lehmann did answer pizzanerd and my questions.  If you want to see what he said, here is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=57042#p57042

I am now more excited to see what happens with the crust flavor, tomorrow.  I also find how Tom Lehmann talks about adding beer can also contribute to better crust flavors very informative.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:41:58 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2010, 03:34:52 PM »
Peter,

I wanted to ask a question as to Tom Lehmann's explanation on how to use the sponge (biga)?  I read and his explanation and don't really understand what could have happened to the preferment and dough with the final incorporating.  Before I post any pictures, I would like to understand this more.

Thanks,
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2010, 05:16:45 PM »
Norma,

Are you referring to the last dough you made using the sponge/biga?

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2010, 05:32:38 PM »
Peter,

It was the dough made today, with the sponge (biga).  I followed the instructions and in the final mix of the preferment being incorporating into the final dough, the dough was so dry it didn't want to be pick up by the dough hook.  The dough was finally incorporated.  I don't know what I might have done wrong, but I don't think I will even be able to use it tomorrow. 

Thanks,
Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2010, 06:28:12 PM »
Norma,

As noted in a couple of earlier posts in this thread, I wondered what would happen when you tried to combine a poolish/biga with a hydration of 50% into a dough with a 56% final hydration. That is one of the reasons why I suggested in Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86428.html#msg86428 that you consider adding more water if the final dough was too stiff. I have made doughs with hydrations in the low 50s before in my standard KitchenAid stand mixer and it is not easy to do. In your case, I would continue with the plan and see if the dough softens up during the cold fermentation and becomes extensible enough for you to open up the dough balls tomorrow when you plan to use them.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 10:38:19 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2010, 08:37:25 PM »

Peter,

In reply #37 when King Arthur Flour sent me an email and told me what a biga was and how 10-15% is used in the final dough, I then had reservations how well this would work.  Tom Lehmann said the preferment flour represents 1/3 of the total formula flour.
 
This is what King Arthur Flour told me a biga was:

A biga is 50-60% hydration using about 1% yeast as well.  A big is
generally about 10-15% of the final dough.

In reply # 48 I told Steve I really had reservations about this preferment.

In reply # 45 you suggested : For now, I would go with the method described by Tom Lehmann and later in the same reply: If the dough is too stiff as you are making it, you can always add more water.

I did have reservations on the low hydration, but had wanted to try the preferment as stated by Tom Lehmann and not stray from that, so I could see if this worked.  That is why I didn't add more water.

Here are the pictures of the dough.  I couldnít form it into a ball that could be closed.  I worked on each dough ball about 15 minutes with no success.

Picture 1 mixed dough with preferment
Picture 2 top of dough ball
Picture 3 bottom of dough ball

Thanks, Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2010, 08:51:08 PM »
Norma,

In light of the results you got, you might want to elicit a response from Tom. Out of curiosity, did you let the sponge/biga warm up before adding the remaining ingredients as part of the final mix? That would perhaps facilitate the final mix but I am not sure that it would be required.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2010, 09:14:27 PM »
Peter,

It did have a warm-up of 2 hours, but the temperature at market was 48 degrees F, so I am not sure how much difference that would have made.

I will post again on the same subject and see what Tom Lehann has to say. I will wait until I try the dough tomorrow.  I really don't have much hope for it, though.

Thanks for your help.

Norma

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