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Author Topic: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza  (Read 328222 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #180 on: February 03, 2010, 12:41:36 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for the compliment.  :) I only did the mixing and making the pizzas.  The preferment was Peter's and old criter ideas together.

Thanks,

Norma

Peter is invaluable to this forum and I believe he's the reason why this site enjoys the success and rave it has been receiving. Kudos also go out to Steve, who's the owner, for making it possible for us pizza enthusiasts to have a place to get together and Bill/SFNM for his valuable contributions and oversight.

But Peter is the, what I call, uncrowned King...or maybe Prince  ;D...of it all. He has helped not only me or you but many others to make their pies better and get where they want to be.

With that said, I'm sure your credits didn't go unnoticed.

Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #181 on: February 03, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »
Peter is invaluable to this forum and I believe he's the reason why this site enjoys the success and rave it has been receiving. Kudos also go out to Steve, who's the owner, for making it possible for us pizza enthusiasts to have a place to get together and Bill/SFNM for his valuable contributions and oversight.

But Peter is the, what I call, uncrowned King...or maybe Prince  ;D...of it all. He has helped not only me or you but many others to make their pies better and get where they want to be.

With that said, I'm sure your credits didn't go unnoticed.



Mike,

I agree with all you have said.  :) Without this site owned by Steve and all the moderators that are willing to help, who could go wrong in trying to make any kind of pizza. I know it all takes time to learn to make any kind of pizza on this site, but there is so much help from moderators and members, alike.  Words can not express how grateful I am for this site.  I know Peter helped me from the beginning, when I sure didn't understand anything about making pizza.

I have watched your thread with great interest, also.  I really like to see how people are progressing.  It is amazing there is a site like this.  It sure is nice to be able to learn so much about pizza.  :)

Thanks,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #182 on: February 03, 2010, 06:42:22 AM »
This poolish preferment and final dough also worked out well for Cheesy Breadsticks and Panini's.  I used one dough from the classic poolish to make the cheesy breadsticks.  I the classic poolish and modified poolish using the leftover dough to make the Panini's.

The final picture is of one slice taken out of the pizza to see how thin the crust was.

Thanks, because this poolish preferment and final dough can be used for other food items.

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #183 on: February 03, 2010, 11:03:34 AM »
Mike and Norma,

Thanks for the compliments. However, I think you should be thanking Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel for their writings on the subject. I was just trying to put their teachings into use in your setting. Since it is rare that the first attempt at a preferment, in this case, a poolish, is likely to be the best representation or manifestation of that style, there are bound to be other variations of the poolish method that are better. This means that some further experimentation might be considered.

BTW, while I was looking for something else recently, I stumbled across another article by Didier Rosada in which he discusses some of the effects of preferments, starting at page 5, as well as other basic aspects of dough making. The article is at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf#search=%22autolyse%20time%20period%22. The treatment of preferment is more general than his other articles but still powerful in its own right. In fact, it was his discussion of the dough strengthening effects of preferments, which Rosada discusses over and over again, that reminded me to increase the hydration of your basic Lehmann dough formulation a bit to compensate. If that didn't work, I might have suggested the use of autolyse or something like that to improve incorporating the poolish into the final mix. I believe that it is possible that you had trouble doing that with the biga you attempted recently, and quite possibly that contributed to the webbing effect you described. I think it is easier to incorporate a wetter preferment into the final mix than a stiffer one. As I read the above article, I could see the influence that Professor Calvel had on Rosada.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #184 on: February 03, 2010, 12:05:00 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing that article.  It is very interesting to hear how intertwined the pizza making world and the bread world are.  It would be hard to do the tests like they are talking about in a laboratory environment, but I can see how extensibility, elasticity and tenacity all have to be taken into the pizza making, also. 

I really like the quote at the beginning that say “One can never know too much: the more one learns, the more one sees the need to learn more..study, as well as broadening the mind of the craftsman provides an easy way of perfecting yourself in the practice of your art.” quoted from Auguste Escoffier 

I really think this is what most of us are doing in trying to make different kinds of pizza.  The more one learns, the more we see we need to learn more.  You can’t ever stop learning because each person and articles are teaching us more.

Reading about all the kinds of flour in bread making and also incorporating that into pizza making is interesting.  It seems like it is always getting back to getting the dough into balance. 

I also like the quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

In using a sourdough technique such as poolish and using it to make the gluten more extensible with out  using an autolyse, is something I will learn more in time.

I can now see how this preferment using the poolish and having it used in the final dough, was a great idea. 

I would like to express my thanks to Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel for studying all of this and helping us all to understand more about how dough behaves. 

Your idea of increasing the hydration was right on.  The dough did behave well and opening the dough was no problem. The dough felt so soft.  On some of the dough I did open, the one with the modified preferment almost could open by just holding your hands under the dough. 

If other experiments are needed or maybe just to see if there are other better ways or variations of the poolish, I would be willing to do them.  I am interested in producing the best pizza I am capable of in my setting.  Only time will tell what this could be.

Thanks,

Norma
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 08:17:20 AM by norma427 »

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #185 on: February 03, 2010, 12:12:03 PM »
Norma,

Very well said.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #186 on: February 03, 2010, 09:05:00 PM »
Peter,

I have been thinking about starting the proofing box, but have some reservations.  For one thing if I would always use this at market, I would need some kind of food safe light inside. I do have food safe heat lights, but they would be too hot for the Styrofoam. Another thing that scares the dickens out of me is using Styrofoam.  Styrofoam is like popcorn, it can go up in flames very fast, if overheated.  When we used to pop corn in our shed we had two commercial poppers.  One was a wet popper, which used oil for popping the corn.  The other popper was a dry popper.  It only used the heat from flames and had a barrel that rotated and reversed.  If any many pieces of popcorn fell though the small grates, the whole batch of popcorn could catch on fire.  We had this happen to us a few times with the dry popper.  Luckily we always kept fire extinguishers nearby. With the wet popper and oil being added to the popcorn, it never caught on fire. Another thing happened with Styrofoam at market one day.  The man that owns the soft pretzel stand outside had Styrofoam cups near a cord.  The cord overheated and it almost burned his whole building down.  The firemen said Styrofoam is very dangerous around heat. 

I was thinking about what I might use, instead of the Styrofoam.  If I would use this classic poolish each week, I don’t know how much poolish I would need from week to week.  In the summer, I would need a lot more.  I just thought about a heating display case I have in the tool shed.  Here is a picture of the heating display case.  It can go up in temperature and also can add humidity, if needed.  The shelves on this heated display case can be removed.

I will see what you have to say about using the heated display case.

Thanks,

Norma 

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #187 on: February 03, 2010, 09:48:14 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me what a "food safe light" is?

I got the idea for the Styrofoam proofing box from Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs at page 35 and never got the impression that it might pose some danger. You can see my proofing box at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887. In lieu of a Styrofoam unit, you might be able to modify a regular plastic picnic cooler to do the same thing. Member sourdough girl described one such design using a Coleman cooler at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8255.msg71205/topicseen.html#msg71205. However, if you are still concerned that some outside factor might pose a problem, you might be able to use your Hatco heating case. Can you tell me what its temperature range is?

Also, you might get some further ideas from this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4775.msg40555.html#msg40555. Other members might also come to the rescue with some simple and inexpensive design that will work for you in your commercial setting. But, whatever device you end up with, it should be able to hold a poolish that is about 30% of the total dough weight, or 3 pounds for a 10-pound dough batch or 4.5 pounds for a 15-pound dough batch.

Peter

Offline Bob1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #188 on: February 03, 2010, 09:58:11 PM »
Norma,
Congratulations, glad to see it worked out for you.

Thanks,

Bob.

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #189 on: February 03, 2010, 10:03:46 PM »
Peter,

A food safe light is a bulb that has a special coating, in case it would break.  Then it wouldn’t pose any problems of shattered glass pieces on the food.  Even in my overhead lights, I need plastic light shields to protect from breakage.  When inspectors look at your equipment or lights you need these things to be food approved.  Also everything has to be NSF approved. 

I don’t think in your case the low wattage in the light bulb would cause any problems. 

I will read over the links you have referenced. 

My Hatco heating case can vary in temperature.  There is a knob that controls the heat.  I am not sure what the heat ranges are, but know it has to reach 144 degrees F to be able to store food at a safe temperature.  That is only for some foods.  Other have to be higher.  I think it can go much lower, but I will have to plug it in and check.  I could put this unit under my pizza oven.  There is a big shelve under the pizza oven.  That also has to be 6" off the floor to store food.

Bob,

Thanks for the congrats!  I really like this poolish preferment and dough.  I see you have achieved success in using your starter.  Congrats to you, also.

Thanks,

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #190 on: February 03, 2010, 10:22:20 PM »
Another thing about making food at home that can be approved for selling at a certified food place is in our state there are hazardous foods and non hazardous foods.  It really isn't a problem in obtaining a food license for baking at home.  You just have to have the food inspector come to your home and approve it for baking.  Baking is considered a non hazardous food.  It only costs 35.00 dollars to obtain this kind of license.  Many Amish and other people do their baking in their homes and then sell them to other stores.  When we made the candy and popped the corn used for making the caramel corn at market, the food was considered non hazardous.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #191 on: February 03, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »
Another thing about making food at home that can be approved for selling at a certified food place is in our state there are hazardous foods and non hazardous foods.  It really isn't a problem in obtaining a food license for baking at home.  You just have to have the food inspector come to your home and approve it for baking.  Baking is considered a non hazardous food.  It only costs 35.00 dollars to obtain this kind of license.  Many Amish and other people do their baking in their homes and then sell them to other stores.  When we made the candy and popped the corn used for making the caramel corn at market, the food was considered non hazardous.

Norma

Norma,

I wish I could say the same about the State of California.

No such thing as getting approved to make food at home and sell it at a market. You need to rent a commercial kitchen over here in order to make anything to be able to sell it to the public. I know because I looked into selling my pasta sauces but the costs to get a project like that off the ground are enormous. Killed the whole fun immediately. Not to mention the insurance premiums one will have to pay since insurance is mandatory.

A little too paranoid if you ask me.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #192 on: February 03, 2010, 11:03:17 PM »
Mike,

Sorry to hear your state is so strict.  In the baking at home here you just can't make certain foods, like custards (pumpkin pies and other custards).  As for making sauces here, you aren't allowed to do that either.   :(  Only baked items, candy or non perishable foods.  It all can be confusing.  In our state if you look under Department of Agriculture Pa. Food inspections you can type in any food operation and get a report of what their inspection results are.  They post the results each week in our newspaper of who got inspected and what they found.  Since I have been in the food business for awhile, I usually check how the place looks before I eat there.  What really got me before I opened the pizza stand was in questioning the inspector what I could and couldn't do, I asked him about making pizza and using gloves.  I said I never saw anyone use gloves to put toppings on pizza.  He replied, "You don't have to use gloves to prepare pizza, because it is put into a hot oven and this kills anything."  Even when we made the candy and popped the corn in the shed, we didn't need to take a food safe test.  That is only for hazardous foods. 

Norma
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:07:45 PM by norma427 »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #193 on: February 03, 2010, 11:11:31 PM »
Norma,

Lucky you. Maybe I need to move to PA.  ;D
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #194 on: February 03, 2010, 11:15:15 PM »
Norma,

Lucky you. Maybe I need to move to PA.  ;D

Mike,

LOL...I couldn't make pizza at home and sell it at market.  Only baked goods and other non hazardous foods.  What kind of food are you thinking about making?  ::)

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #195 on: February 04, 2010, 08:14:53 AM »
Norma,

But, whatever device you end up with, it should be able to hold a poolish that is about 30% of the total dough weight, or 3 pounds for a 10-pound dough batch or 4.5 pounds for a 15-pound dough batch.

Peter


I looked on the Hatco website and downloaded manual, product brochure, and spec sheet.  Below is what they say.  I think since this Hatco unit can start at a 80 degree holding temperature, it might work to heat the preferment.  Since it is food approved, I don’t think there would be any other problems with me having it at market.
I also would need to make more than 4.5 lb. batches of the preferment, because in making my dough, depending on the time of year, I make multiple batches of 15 lbs, to meet what dough I might need.  My 20 qt. mixer will only make 15 lb. of dough at a time.  If then needed I might make a 10 lb. batch of dough, also.


The Hatco “operator friendly” control panel makes it easy to set the correct heat and
humidity levels. Convenient dials regulate temperature and moisture, while a green
light indicates the humidity-cycle. A red light signals low-water in the reservoir. The
cabinet heat is monitored by a temperature indicator, and a front-fill reservoir cup
makes it easy to add water.

PRODUCT SPECS
Impulse Display Cabinet
The humidity controlled Impulse Display Cabinet shall be a Flav-R-Fresh®
Model ... rated at ... volts and ... watts, as manufactured by the Hatco
Corporation, Milwaukee,WI 53234 U.S.A.
With 24/7 parts and service assistance (U.S. and Canada only), the
cabinet shall have ....door(s), tempered glass sides, stationary rack
(or revolving display), and fluorescent display light. It shall include
a water reservoir, electronic controls, on-off switch, and indicating lights.
A 6' (1829 mm) cord with plug shall be attached.
Accessories shall include merchandising racks, display

The temperature range is 80?–195?F
(27?–91?C) in single degree increments. See the “Food
Holding Guide” in this section for recommendations.
                  

Norma

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #196 on: February 04, 2010, 11:51:14 AM »
Norma,

Last night I also went to the Hatco website and saw the same temperature range for the Hatco unit. As you noted, it looks like the lowest temperature setting is 80 degrees F. That is actually the prefermentation temperature that Didier Rosada states in one of his articles (Part 1) for a poolish. For that temperature, he states a water temperature of 60 degrees F. These values can be varied but will affect the time that it takes for the poolish to reach the break point and may also alter the characteristics of the poolish. So, you may have to run a test poolish in your Hatco unit to see how long it takes for the poolish to get to the same volume and stage of bubbling that you got with your last poolish (the classic one) that worked out so well. Ultimately, you will perhaps also have to run another test poolish for the much larger dough batches that you expect to use. That will be the more important test.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #197 on: February 04, 2010, 12:22:17 PM »
Norma,

Last night I also went to the Hatco website and saw the same temperature range for the Hatco unit. As you noted, it looks like the lowest temperature setting is 80 degrees F. That is actually the prefermentation temperature that Didier Rosada states in one of his articles (Part 1) for a poolish. For that temperature, he states a water temperature of 60 degrees F. These values can be varied but will affect the time that it takes for the poolish to reach the break point and may also alter the characteristics of the poolish. So, you may have to run a test poolish in your Hatco unit to see how long it takes for the poolish to get to the same volume and stage of bubbling that you got with your last poolish (the classic one) that worked out so well. Ultimately, you will perhaps also have to run another test poolish for the much larger dough batches that you expect to use. That will be the more important test.


Peter


Peter,

Thanks letting me know what Didier Rosada states for the water temperature of the poolish.  That will give a starting point to work on. 

I think for this week, I am going to just make the classic poolish over again Friday at market and see if I get the same results.  I had made the classic poolish last Saturday, so it didn’t really reflect the 3 day poolish.  If this works out with the same results, then I will try the Hatco Unit and see what results there are with making the poolish for a 3 day period, before incorporating into the final dough. 

I will try the Hatco unit out over the weekend to make sure the temperature will stay at 80 degrees F.  There is a temperature readout on this model, so I should be able to see how to adjust the temperature. I think there would be enough room in the unit to put food grade containers for the amounts of poolish I might need.

I also see the need for more tests, to see how larger amounts of the poolish work.

Will post the results of how well the classic poolish works out this coming week and also how well the Hatco unit maintains the temperature of 80 degrees F.

Thanks,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #198 on: February 07, 2010, 09:41:21 PM »
The Hatco Merchandiser can maintain a temperature of 80 degrees F for 3 hours.  Tomorrow I will see if the poolish did well.  When I went to market Friday it was usually warm.  They had just installed a new propane heater near my stand and it just kept running.  The ambient temperature was 72 degrees Friday.  The disk heater was still turned on and the poolish bubbled in two and a half hours.  Now, the next problem is how I am going to get the Hatco Merchandiser out of the Tool Shed and around to the van.  There is a path shoveled, but I am not sure if the bag wagon will be able to fit and be able take the Merchandiser out to the van. 

Just a note that Root’s Market is asking standholders to take one of their products and give the proceeds to Haitian Relief.  Here is their newsletter and sign we are supposed to put at our stands.


ROOT'S 

Country Market & Auction

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CELEBRATING  OUR  85th  ANNIVERSARY  in  2010

OPEN YEAR ROUND, "THIS TUESDAY AND EVERY TUESDAY"

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RESULTS from the FAVORITE  DECORATED  STAND  Contest 

1st Place    BYERS' BUTTERFLAKE BAKERY (Area #2)

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Be sure to visit www.rootsmarket.com   and   www.rootsoldmill.com  for listing of activities around the market grounds.

 

CENTRAL PENN BLOOD BANK- is scheduled to be at Root's this TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2nd  AND every  FIRST TUESDAY OF THE MONTH throughout 2010.   

 

HAITIAN RELIEF EFFORT - During the month of February, standholders throughout the market will be advertising the sale of a selected item(s).   Profits from those items will go directly to the Mennonite Central Committee's Haitian Disaster Relief.   Thank you for supporting this effort by Root's standholders.    The idea for this effort came from:  Burkhart's Bakery (Main Building Area #1).

 

CUSTOMER QUESTIONNAIRE - Available in the office lobby.   Please take the time to fill out this questionnaire.   Your response will be automatically entered in GIFT CERTIFICATE DRAWINGS for Root's Country Market, Root's Old Mill Flea Market or for individual stands.

 

AT THE MILL - ANTIQUES  &  FLEA MARKET - Across Graystone Road from Root's Country Market is ROOT'S OLD MILL FLEA MARKET.   In Mill Building #1 and #2,  there are 21 booths offering a wide variety of antiques and flea market items including VINTAGE & NEW JEWELRY, BOARD GAMES, BOOKS, RECORDS, GLASSWARE, COLLECTIBLES,  SPORTING GOODS, PAPER GOODS, ADVERTISING ITEMS, TOOLS, DVDs & MUCH MORE.    See Jim in the office for a selection of GOOD USED FURNITURE also.

 

IN ROOT'S COUNTRY  -  Located across Lititz Road from Root's is EVERGREEN GOLF offering 18 holes of Executive Course golf and 18 holes of Pitch and Putt.   Evergreen Golf's EXECUTIVE COURSE  is a par 66 course,  4,569 yards long and provides all the challenges of golf from sand traps, a par 5 and various par 4 holes on well maintained fairways and greens  but on a executive length course that takes only around three hours to play.   Evergreen Golf also has clubs and carts for rent and golf merchandise for sale in the clubhouse.   The PITCH & PUTT COURSE is par 3 golf on all 18 holes.   With playing time of approximately one and a half hours, Evergreen's Pitch and Putt Course is perfect for people of all ages to learn and enjoy the game.    Evergreen Golf even provides the clubs and balls at no additional charge.   Call the clubhouse at 717-898-7852.

 

 ABBY'S FOUNDATION  &  ROOT'S  -  ROOT'S OLD MILL FLEA MARKET Manager, Jim Brubaker is losing more weight.   During the next eight months, Jim and a devoted group of people will lose weight and Jim is getting sponsors for Abby's Foundation as encouragement.   Jim's goal is to lose 53 more pounds.  Last year in a successful weight loss challenge with Root's general manager, Jim lost 40 pounds and raised over $5000 for charity.   This year, Jim is using nutritional information and a local gym, EXTREME PHYSIQUE & NUTRITION in Mountville, to help him achieve this new goal.    If you would like to JOIN JIM IN LOSING WEIGHT, call him at 717-898-7443.    TO MAKE A DONATION IN SUPPORT, click  www.abbysfoundation.org/donation.asp   and write   JIM'S 2010 WEIGHT LOSS CHALLENGE  in the comment section.    You can see a VIDEO CLIP OF JIM'S EFFORTS on  WGAL.COM.    Katelyn Smith of WGALTV8 recently interviewed Jim during a work out session at the gym which was then broadcast on Thursday morning news January 28th.   click here to see the video  at    www.wgal.com/video/index.html

Helping Jim achieve his own goal is :  Steve Nolt of EXTREME PHYSIQUE & NUTRITION in Mountville  (717-689-4618).                        Joining Jim in losing weight AND gettting sponsorship help towards the goal are:   Jim Houser, Root's Security Officer...  Baron Sweitzer of SWEITZER'S CLEANING...   Sandy Weeks of the SUDDENLY SLIM / ZAVITA stand at Root's (Main Building Area#3)...   

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT OF ABBY'S FOUNDATION.    www.abbysfoundation.org

ABBY'S FOUNDATION - Helping Non Profit Organizations Help Children Since 1998.

 

 

The first four people to call the office and speak with Joan or Susan will receive a Root's Country Market & Auction LARGE BLUE SHOPPING BAG made from recycled material .  Thank you for reading this email and for thinking GREEN with a BLUE ROOT'S SHOPPING BAG.

 

 "This TUESDAY and EVERY TUESDAY,

Shop  ROOT'S COUNTRY MARKET & AUCTION"

"A Lancaster County Tradition Since 1925"

Offline norma427

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Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
« Reply #199 on: February 08, 2010, 05:40:59 PM »
The poolish today looked okay.  The temperature at market was still warm.  When incorporating the poolish into the final dough, the dough looked too sticky and wet.  I am puzzled why this would have happened. I did double check my weights on the scale and measured each ingredient in different containers, before adding them together in the mixer.  I knew how the final dough looked and felt last week.  I decided to add more flour, so the dough would feel more like last weeks dough with the classic poolish.  I added .234 lbs. of flour.  The poolish with preferment then felt about the same as last week.  The final dough temperature was 79 degrees F.

Norma

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