Felice Anno Nuovo! Pizza Sfincione to greet the new year.

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Judging by the interior, it must have been like eating a cloud made of pizza dough. Exactly the result I've been trying to achieve in that respect. Care to provide the technical wherefores (flour, hydration, leviture, bake time etc.)? Did you get rid of the milk kefir?

JLP

[norma427]

Judging by the interior, it must have been like eating a cloud made of pizza dough. Exactly the result I've been trying to achieve in that respect. Care to provide the technical wherefores (flour, hydration, leviture, bake time etc.)? Did you get rid of the milk kefir?

JLP

Jose,

The interior was like eating a cloud.  Even after the pie cooled down and just a little while ago I ate a slice and it is still soft. I was so happy with this pie.    I had eaten at Keste’s recently and this interior almost reminded me of that pie.  The bottom didn’t have any crunch and was just right in my opinion.  I don’t really know how this kind of pie is suppose to taste like, but I really enjoyed it.  The crust had a wonderful taste in my opinion.  The one thing I forgot to do was let the dough proof after opening the dough.  I might try that the next time.

I used durum flour for this pie.  This is the formula I made up yesterday morning.  I had no idea if it would work.  I did get rid of the milk kefir and used IDY as can been seen in this formula.  I didn’t use all the IDY though, because I wanted to give this dough longer to room temperature ferment. This pie was baked on the stone at about 565 degrees F.  If you have any more questions, just ask. 

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

I just want to think out loud here for a few lines about the milk kefir. Once you diagnosed it as the root of the problem, it occurred to me that the crumb shots in the pics of the milk kefir version looked kind of cake-like. Now, each year my mother bakes a traditional German type of cake in a pan that in many ways is a lot like a Sicilian pizza- so much so, in fact, that every time I visit and she has one of these cakes around I wisecrack: "that's a funny looking pizza" and we both get a laugh. Those cakes come out as cakes, and not as pizzas, because they're loaded with milk. So I'm thinking that maybe the milk kefir was exercising a shortening effect on your dough?

The second, more important point: I noticed from your diagram that you used a poolish- do you think it would have been possible to get the cloud-like interior without it?

JLP

[norma427]

I just want to think out loud here for a few lines about the milk kefir. Once you diagnosed it as the root of the problem, it occurred to me that the crumb shots in the pics of the milk kefir version looked kind of cake-like. Now, each year my mother bakes a traditional German type of cake in a pan that in many ways is a lot like a Sicilian pizza- so much so, in fact, that every time I visit and she has one of these cakes around I wisecrack: "that's a funny looking pizza" and we both get a laugh. Those cakes come out as cakes, and not as pizzas, because they're loaded with milk. So I'm thinking that maybe the milk kefir was exercising a shortening effect on your dough?

The second, more important point: I noticed from your diagram that you used a poolish- do you think it would have been possible to get the cloud-like interior without it?

JLP

Jose,
Thanks for telling me about your mother’s traditional German type of cake with milk.  I had a laugh about that.   
I wouldn’t really dismiss milk kefir in a dough like this yet, because I did have decent results with using milk kefir poolish in other doughs I have experimented with.  The milk kefir can make a nice airy crust, if the right protocol is used.  I think my last results in using milk kefir were from using a dough that were a higher hydration, in combination with using milk kefir directly added.  In my opinion it was more due to my inexperience in using such a high hydration dough. I didn’t add any oil to the milk kefir dough.

I am not an expert on what a poolish can do to dough, but have used a poolish different times in my doughs. I use a poolish in my current preferment Lehmann dough at market. I like the effects of using a poolish in doughs.   I may not be right because I am just experimenting with this dough, but I am thinking along the lines of since this was a higher hydration dough (a softer dough when it was proofed) and I mixed this dough until everything came together well, this to some extent must have helped with oven spring. I also mixed everything in the final dough except the salt and oil. I then added them last until they were incorporated into the final dough. I also used stretch and folds in the first few hours of proofing. I learned that from the Tartine book.  I was going to use my steel metal pan to bake this pizza, but saw how some pizzerias that do this kind of pizza, do bake on the stone.  That is why I gave baking on the stone a try.  My bake temperatures were higher at market than I can get at home in my oven. The poolish was fermented at room temperature until it looked like the first picture I posted.   The dough I used also had a higher oil percent and I guess that the oil also could have held moisture and helped oven spring. 

I really don’t know if not using a poolish would get me the same results, unless I would try it first.

Norma

[norma427]

I reheated a slice of the pizza I made yesterday.  It still amazes me that this slice is so moist and really didn’t change in taste from yesterday.  With each bite there are more holes in this kind of pie. 

I am going to make another dough with about the same formula, only in a smaller batch to try in my home oven.  I only have a 16" pizza stone and will try to see what happens in my home oven, if I can get anywhere near the same results.  My home oven only goes to a little over 500 degrees F.  I might up the hydration a little to compensate for the anticipated bake time. 

I wonder if anyone has tried Farina “00" granoro flour in a pizza like this?  Since I had used durum flour in my last formula, I am wondering if I should just try the durum flour or maybe try the Farina “00" flour.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  I also would like to know if someone has ever tried a real pie at Pizzarium, how did the slice taste the next day?

Pictures of unheated and reheated slice today.

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

I've never been, but the slices at Pizzarium and other similar places *have* to be able reheat well, since they're slice joints and customers either have the slice reheated or eat it at room temp. I'm going to guess that the style was designed from the ground up to keep well and to re-heat/eat at room temp well. I ate a leftover slice from yesterday's effort about 9 hours after baking without re-heating it and the crust was pretty much the same as it was after being taken out of the oven, different only in that the cornicone was not as crispy.

The discovery that the slices re-heat well opens up a lot of possibilities for convenience.

JLP   

[norma427]

I've never been, but the slices at Pizzarium and other similar places *have* to be able reheat well, since they're slice joints and customers either have the slice reheated or eat it at room temp. I'm going to guess that the style was designed from the ground up to keep well and to re-heat/eat at room temp well. I ate a leftover slice from yesterday's effort about 9 hours after baking without re-heating it and the crust was pretty much the same as it was after being taken out of the oven, different only in that the cornicone was not as crispy.

The discovery that the slices re-heat well opens up a lot of possibilities for convenience.

JLP   

Jose,

I thought about customers eating slices at Pizzarium and them not reheating them.  Before I wasn’t open to unheated pizzas, before I tried the slice I had at Sullivan St. Bakery.  That opened a whole new world to me, how an unheated slice of some pizzas can still taste good.  I also couldn’t believe how good that cold slice of pizza tasted.  Some people can eat cold pizza, but if I would take an ordinary pizza I made, I wouldn’t like it cool or cold.

I also think somehow this style of pizza was built from the ground up years ago, so unheated slices would still taste good.  I also couldn’t believe when I ate a slice of pizza cold, that I had made on Tuesday, how good that slice tasted.  Somehow, somebody developed this style of pizza for bakeries I would believe. 

I agree with you that since cold slices do reheat very well, it opens more new possibilities. 

Thanks for your thoughts, 

Norma

[Matthew]

I've never been, but the slices at Pizzarium and other similar places *have* to be able reheat well, since they're slice joints and customers either have the slice reheated or eat it at room temp. I'm going to guess that the style was designed from the ground up to keep well and to re-heat/eat at room temp well. I ate a leftover slice from yesterday's effort about 9 hours after baking without re-heating it and the crust was pretty much the same as it was after being taken out of the oven, different only in that the cornicone was not as crispy.

The discovery that the slices re-heat well opens up a lot of possibilities for convenience.

JLP   

I think alot has to do with the handling after baking.  The whole pizzas are immediately transferred to a room temp teglia.  The internal steam released as the pizza cools down has no where to go but back in the pizza which accounts for the soft bottom & crumb.  Once reheated, the bottom will firm up slightly while still retaining a soft & moist crumb.  On the other hand, immediately transferring a fully baked pizza to a cooling rack will yield a product with a crispy bottom which when reheated will be almost too crispy/dry.

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

I haven't been following this thread, but have just read the most recent posts.  Norma, congrats on making such a satisfying pizza.  Compare to your normal NY style pies, how is this different in texture and what factors would you attribute to those differences if there are any.

Also to all, I would think the high hydration ratio and the oil would be responsible for keeping this crust/crumb moist and soft for an extended amount of time.  If so, how would this translate into bread making?  Is there a bread that is similar to this type of crust?  I believe ppl already use this baked dough to make sandwiches right?

Chau

[Matthew]

I haven't been following this thread, but have just read the most recent posts.  Norma, congrats on making such a satisfying pizza.  Compare to your normal NY style pies, how is this different in texture and what factors would you attribute to those differences if there are any.

Also to all, I would think the high hydration ratio and the oil would be responsible for keeping this crust/crumb moist and soft for an extended amount of time.  If so, how would this translate into bread making?  Is there a bread that is similar to this type of crust?  I believe ppl already use this baked dough to make sandwiches right?

Chau

See reply #173.http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.160.html
These were made using the same dough.  The bread was spectacular.

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Matt and good looking pizza and bread.  I'm curious to know your opinion on how different (better or worse) the bread was compared to a typical tartine style loaf.  Was it such that it would change the way you normally make bread?

Chau

[norma427]

I haven't been following this thread, but have just read the most recent posts.  Norma, congrats on making such a satisfying pizza.  Compare to your normal NY style pies, how is this different in texture and what factors would you attribute to those differences if there are any.

Also to all, I would think the high hydration ratio and the oil would be responsible for keeping this crust/crumb moist and soft for an extended amount of time.  If so, how would this translate into bread making?  Is there a bread that is similar to this type of crust?  I believe ppl already use this baked dough to make sandwiches right?

Chau

Chau,

Thanks for the congrats on my last pie.  I just reread though my thread and although I remember trying different methods in this thread, I was inexperienced before, in many of my ways of understanding dough.  This thread did teach me some about handling a higher hydration dough. The Tartine bread book since has taught me more about using higher hydration doughs.

Comparing this to any of the NY style pies I have made, this is a much different kind of pizza, in terms of texture of the crust.  The texture is a lot more soft, and when I would take a bite of the pizza, if melts better in my mouth, if that makes any sense. When I would take bites of this recent pie, it is almost like biting into a cloud.  That is how soft the crumb is. I am really only starting to experiment again with this type of pizza, and I sure don’t know if I ever will be able to perfect this kind of pizza, but I am going to try.  Since I never really had any real pizza from Pizzarium, I won’t ever know if the taste of my pies are like theirs.

I would tend to think that the high hydration and higher oil do work together well to make this kind of pizza, as you also thought.  Also the kind of flour used can give different results.  I know you are used to using higher hydration doughs and also making bread, so you should be able to make this kind of pizza successfully.  I am sure you will notice a difference in the crumb of this kind of pizza when you make one. 

Matt is right, he did make a spectular bread with his same dough in the Pizzarium thread, he referenced.     We all have been on this journey for about a year now and I think we all understand better now, what we want to achieve.  I still have some experimenting to do with different flours and baking methods.  I want to purchase a steel baking pan.  My daughter said she would drive me to Bova Foods sometime in the next week, to purchase a steel baking pan.  I don’t think any of my other baking pans will bake this kind of pizza right, but I did have success on baking on the stone at market.  In the dough I started yesterday, I am going to bake on the stone in my home oven.  My home oven isn’t the best, and as you have posted before all ovens do bake different. 

Best of luck when you try this kind of pizza. 

Norma

[Matthew]

Thanks Matt, I'm curious to know your opinion on how different (better or worse) the bread was compared to a typical tartine style loaf.  Was it such that it wouild change the way you normally make bread?

Chau

In my opinion, just as good. 

Matt

[norma427]

I think alot has to do with the handling after baking.  The whole pizzas are immediately transferred to a room temp teglia.  The internal steam released as the pizza cools down has no where to go but back in the pizza which accounts for the soft bottom & crumb.  Once reheated, the bottom will firm up slightly while still retaining a soft & moist crumb.  On the other hand, immediately transferring a fully baked pizza to a cooling rack will yield a product with a crispy bottom which when reheated will be almost too crispy/dry.

Matt

Matt,

I think you are right that this kind of pie has a lot to do with the handling after baking if the pie will be crispy or not.  It is a delicate balance to try and achieve the soft bottom and crumb. Your bread made in the Pizzarium thread looks amazing, also. 

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

I think alot has to do with the handling after baking.  The whole pizzas are immediately transferred to a room temp teglia.  The internal steam released as the pizza cools down has no where to go but back in the pizza which accounts for the soft bottom & crumb.  Once reheated, the bottom will firm up slightly while still retaining a soft & moist crumb.  On the other hand, immediately transferring a fully baked pizza to a cooling rack will yield a product with a crispy bottom which when reheated will be almost too crispy/dry.

Matt

That sounds like an important observation. Additionally, oil is probably also important when it comes to reheating.

Once I finally nail this style, I'm going to have to experiment with making one and reheating it. Imagine how luxurious it would be to make a small pie, put it in a pan, knock back with drinks for the evening, and then just put it in the oven and eat it when buzzed and hungry enough to *really* appreciate it (instead of scrounging in the fridge for leftover chicken legs or whatever).

JLP

[norma427]

These are pictures of how my dough is progressing.
1.  top of poolish after being in the refrigerator over 24 hrs.
2.  bottom of poolish
3.  final dough
4.  Dough after room temperature proofing for 3 ½ hrs.
5.  Shaped dough

I mixed the poolish in with the water part of the formula, then added flour and IDY.  Mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer until all ingredients were incorporated, then mixed for 15 minutes on various speeds.  Added salt, then oil and mixed for 10 minutes more.  Final dough temperature was 74.3 degrees F.  I did 4 stretch and folds on the dough before forming a loaf.

The formula for this dough was posted yesterday at Reply 195 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg121941.html#msg121941

Norma

[norma427]

Forno Campo di Fiori- Rome

From this video Toby (foolishpoolish) referenced before, this shows how pizza al taglio is made at Forno Campo di Fiori- Rome at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121415.html#msg121415 and in that post is the video.



This is a blog about pizza al taglio at Forno Campo di Fiori and how they don’t reheat slices and what the blogger had to say about the toppings being fresh and robust but was no shocker that the highlight here was the crust. It was gently crispy on bottom and chewy all around. The inside resembled a beehive and was so light that it seemed hollow.

http://blog.forzapizza.com/2010/02/pizza-romana-and-its-double-personality.html

A video from Forno Campo di Fiori.

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/mediaplayer/popup.html

In this blog if anyone is interested you can go down in the page and read about pizza al taglio and see pictures.  http://tamarindandthyme.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/campo-de-fiori-rome/

Some more pictures of pizza al taglio at: http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigmap/outoftown/italy/lazio/rome/fornocampodefiori/index.htm

Forno Campo di Fiori website where it says their team of experienced bakers who produce every day and offer the same bread, the same pizza and the same specialties 'that more' than 30 years delighting the palates of old and new customers.

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/main.php

Norma

[dellavecchia]

Norma - Thank you for the links and videos. I actually remember eating at this place in the Campo de Fiori, which was one of my favorite areas of Rome. And now that I saw the video, I also remember the crust not being particularly puffy in the middle - only slightly - and there being a definite crunch in the bite.

John